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[Daryl Fawcett]

Daryl, my friend and I seriously consider you to be my friend.

Johan has responded to the question that he has been asked.  There is no reason for him to repeat himself again.

He and I have both been challenged  to provide clear answers to questions that he and I have responded to in the past.  Our answers have not satisfied people who contnue to ask the questions.  Current challenges are generally phrased with a: Provide a clear stataement where . . . . .  [insert the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy says . . . .].  It is clear that there is no value in repeating answers that have been rejected in the past.  So, why should we repeat them?

Because somebody different is asking, namely myself, who had never asked previously.

[Johann]

2. The church I belong to and have served, has for many years employed female pastors and is only waiting for the General Conference to be obedient to the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW to ordain the female pastors that are working for us.

I'm glad they are waiting. But where is the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW that: (a) Men and women ministers may primarily serve as local pastors of local churches? (b) Women may be "invested with full ecclesiastical authority" "to baptize" and to "organize churches" (LP 42)?

You said that there is a "clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW," and yet you have never quoted for us this clear call to do (a) and (b) above. If it is that clear, then by all means settle the controversy and quote the clear call for us.

I wonder why nobody has taken up this challenge presented here by Bob?

Because I see no reason to repeat myself again and again.

Can you show me where you already answered that question?

No, Daryl, because that is the total picture of what I have been posting here for a long time. Too often the discussions here are limited to short phrases taken out of context which obliterate the total picture of redemption in Jesus Christ.

When this challenge was issued to me here on AT my wife and I were on a 6-day trip to enjoy nature. We intended to take a round trip of our country, but bad weather made us turn around and take the same way back. Our access to the Internet was mostly limited to stops we made at larger gas stations, where we were often disturbed by children, etc. So my concentration was quite limited for several days.

But now that my Division President has made it clear, and this is what I was referring to, I feel it is best that you see for yourself what he says. His views have been presented here now both by myself and Dedication.

Besides that, let me just repeat a few points.

We have seen lengthy discussions of what happened in 1891, and it has been made clear that some males tabled this in a committee, and it has even been suggested who these men were. So it  could be suggested that some of the same men shipped EGW off to Australia.

Regardless of what happened in 1891, we have not found a single indication that EGW had anything to say against the proposal of ordaining women. Bob has tried to show us that there could have been some men who were opposed to it, at least we know that it did not happen.

Did EGW object to their opinions? It is my honest opinion, based on her writings, that under divine guidance EGW attempted to re-introduce the idea of ordaining women evangelists, then on a different level as part time evangelists who were to be ordained. This is what she made clear in 1895, and through several articles and writings, where she envisioned a great army of female evangelists meeting urgent needs in the homes and thereby revolutionize the whole concept of soul winning.

I understand the main hindrance being the vanity of egocentric men who were unwilling to break their traditional view of male superiority, fostered by what Pastor John from Yugoslavia termed as his own cultural tradition framed by Roman Catholicism, Orthodox, and Islamic teachings - until he had the time to read his Bible.

I invite you to do the same. Yesterday and today I have read quite a number of chapters in the New Testament, which inevitably leads to prayer, re-dedication, and a clearer understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ, the investigative judgment going on, not to speak of the living hope of Jesus coming again.

Edited: 1891 - should have been 1881. Sorry for the mistake!

[Johann]

Daryl, my friend and I seriously consider you to be my friend.

Johan has responded to the question that he has been asked.  There is no reason for him to repeat himself again.

He and I have both been challenged  to provide clear answers to questions that he and I have responded to in the past.  Our answers have not satisfied people who contnue to ask the questions.  Current challenges are generally phrased with a: Provide a clear stataement where . . . . .  [insert the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy says . . . .].  It is clear that there is no value in repeating answers that have been rejected in the past.  So, why should we repeat them?

 

Such a typical way to make it impossible to give an intelligent answer.

[Daryl Fawcett]

In that case I consider this a done deal and a closed issue between the two of you; namely Johann and Gregory.

In other words, I am done discussing this with the two of you.

[Snoopy]

LOL!!   

Join the club, Daryl!!  There seems to be a lot of that going around!!

 

[Daryl Fawcett]

LOL!!   

Join the club, Daryl!!  There seems to be a lot of that going around!!

 

When people don't want to respond to me, I in turn don't want to respond to them, no matter who they are.

[Gregory]

In that case I consider this a done deal and a closed issue between the two of you; namely Johann and Gregory.

In other words, I am done discussing this with the two of you.

Daryl, I hope that we can remain friends.

There are many reasons why I do not post.
1) Some issues simply to not raise my interest level to the pont where I am willing to spend time posting.
2) I often do not post when other have said everything that I might say and/or said it better.
3)   I Do not repeat myself a never ending set of times.


Daryl, I work full-time and cannot spend the amount of time on the Internet that I might wish.  I have some vision problems and must spend extra time attempting to remove the typos from my psots.  In addition to the micro-surgery that I had in January, I am now headed for catarect surgery.
GregoryMatthews

[Bob Pickle]

"Sister Caro Very Capable Woman—
Sister Caro is a superior dentist. She has all the work she can do. She is a tall stately woman, but sociable and companionable. You would love her if you should see her. She does not hoard her means, she puts it into bags which wax not old. She handles an immense amount of money, and she uses the money to educate young men to become laborers for the Master. I am greatly attached to her. She holds her diploma as dentist and her credentials as minister.
 She speaks to the church when there is no minister, so you see that she is a very capable woman. Her husband is a physician and surgeon."—Letter 33, 1893, p. 2  MR678   {9MR 25.1}

 Sister Caro not only does her business, but she has a ministerial license [MRS. CARO IS LISTED IN THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST YEARBOOK FOR 1894, P. 7, AS MINISTERIAL "LICENTIATE."] and bears many burdens in their church at Napier [New Zealand]. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable.
Manuscript 22, 1893, p. 2. (Untitled, July 12, 1893.)  {9MR 25.2}

Women were given the credentials of a licensed minister, that is true. I don't see any problem with that.

[Bob Pickle]

Johan has responded to the question that he has been asked.

Gregory, Johann hasn't provided any quotations for us from the Bible or SoP which clearly mandate that women be ordained to organize churches, baptize, or ordain local elders and deacons. That's what he really needs to do.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Johan has responded to the question that he has been asked.

Gregory, Johann hasn't provided any quotations for us from the Bible or SoP which clearly mandate that women be ordained to organize churches, baptize, or ordain local elders and deacons. That's what he really needs to do.

Could that be why Johann didn't even provide me with a link to the post where he said he had previously already answered that question?

[Snoopy]

Give it a rest!!!!!

Johann can't give you a single link because this has been going on and on and on and on....

[Daryl Fawcett]

Give it a rest!!!!!

Johann can't give you a single link because this has been going on and on and on and on....

And it is still going on and on and on and on....

[Johann]

Right now I have an important sermon to preach to feed the people with a real message from God. It takes prayer, meditation, and Bible study. You might have to wait til next week before I answer another one of your needless questions.

I warn you that you need lots of prayer, meditation, and Bible study before you are ready for the reply, and if the good Lord hasn't got hold of you yet, . . .

Try to read all of Acts, Ephesians, Philippians, Hebrews, and keep  on from there. Don't forget Psalms 119:105. Reading the Word of God is not going to hurt your soul.

Reading all of Steps to Christ in one sitting wouldn't do you much harm either. Get hold of Jesus Christ and discover what He will do for you. Do like Jacob had to do: Hold tight, and do not let go. This is the message we must give to our people after it gets hold of us.

Well, I'll keep you in my prayers.

[Dedication]

One can only wonder in astonishment that the resolution to ordain qualified women to the ministry was made in the 1881 General Conference Session! I know it was never voted on, but it was still part of the 1881 GC meeting!

Why would this subject come up back then?
I mean -- if this really is a "Korah" situation of rebelling against God, you would think such a resolution won't have surfaced in 1881. Or at least that it would have been quickly voted DOWN, but instead it was referred to the General Conference Committe.

They were living in a culture where women weren't ordained into the ministry in any of the churches (other than the Quakers and Salvation Army).

There certainly wasn't any "politically correct" pressure on them to ordain women. In those days it was NOT regarded as "correct" to ordain women by society at large.
So why were they considering it in the 1881 General Conference?

According to a letter written by a Clarence Crisler, June 16, 1916, the reason ordination of women was not pushed in the church was due to " perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world."

So in essense it was culture that held it back.

[Bob Pickle]

One can only wonder in astonishment that the resolution to ordain qualified women to the ministry was made in the 1881 General Conference Session! I know it was never voted on, but it was still part of the 1881 GC meeting!

Why would this subject come up back then?
I mean -- if this really is a "Korah" situation of rebelling against God, you would think such a resolution won't have surfaced in 1881. Or at least that it would have been quickly voted DOWN, but instead it was referred to the General Conference Committe.

They were living in a culture where women weren't ordained into the ministry in any of the churches (other than the Quakers and Salvation Army).

There certainly wasn't any "politically correct" pressure on them to ordain women. In those days it was NOT regarded as "correct" to ordain women by society at large.
So why were they considering it in the 1881 General Conference?

According to a letter written by a Clarence Crisler, June 16, 1916, the reason ordination of women was not pushed in the church was due to " perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world."

So in essense it was culture that held it back.

I think the more important question is what the 1881 resolution was really intended to mean. If it was meant to authorize preaching and evangelizing, then it means less than if that resolution was meant to authorize the organizing of churches and baptizing.