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[Murcielago]

Bob, in the event the GC allows for gender neutral ordination in the fields that wish to proceed with it, but not imposing it on those that don't want it, if they allowed the fields to accept pastors from other fields at whatever the highest level of ordination the accepting field authorizes based on criteria such as gender, would you consider that an acceptable solution?

[Daryl Fawcett]

Here is the complete paragraph:

We believe fully in church organization, but in nothing that is to prescribe the precise way in which we must work; for all minds are not reached by the same methods. Nothing is to be allowed to keep the working servant of God from his fellow man. The individual believer is to labor for the individual sinner. Each person has his own lamp to keep burning; and if the heavenly oil is emptied into these lamps through the golden pipes, if they empty the golden oil out of themselves, and if it is received into the vessels which have been emptied of self, and so prepared to receive the holy oil, that lamp, well supplied with the holy oil, can to some purpose throw its light on the sinner's path. Very much more light shines from one such lamp onto the path of the wanderer, than would be given by a whole torchlight procession got up for parade and show. O, what a work may be done if we will not stretch ourselves beyond our measure!  {RH, May 9, 1899 par. 14} 

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, in the event the GC allows for gender neutral ordination in the fields that wish to proceed with it, but not imposing it on those that don't want it, if they allowed the fields to accept pastors from other fields at whatever the highest level of ordination the accepting field authorizes based on criteria such as gender, would you consider that an acceptable solution?

Not if in so doing we abandon our historic belief of having the Bible be the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian. If the above suggested accommodation is based on explanations of 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 that use cultural arguments instead of biblical arguments, then no, it would not be acceptable.

But that is a different issue than whether unions would be in rebellion. If the GC Session, and it would need to be a GC Session I think, were to make the above suggested accommodation, then for a union to move forward in those lines would not be rebellion whereas now it would be.

But that wouldn't take care of the present problem. The precedent has now been set that a union can do as it pleases regardless of what a GC Session says. How will that precedent be neutralized? Voting the above suggested accommodation doesn't cut it. All that would do is send a signal to all the unions in the world, or at least the unions that have the money that the rest of the church relies on, that if they move forward unilaterally on any issue, the world church will possibly accommodate them anyway. But if they don't have enough money, they might get dissolved for their rebellion.

So I think the only fair, just, and workable solution is for the GC to move forward with some sort of disciplinary process.

[Bob Pickle]

Here is the complete paragraph:

We believe fully in church organization, but in nothing that is to prescribe the precise way in which we must work; for all minds are not reached by the same methods. Nothing is to be allowed to keep the working servant of God from his fellow man. The individual believer is to labor for the individual sinner. Each person has his own lamp to keep burning; and if the heavenly oil is emptied into these lamps through the golden pipes, if they empty the golden oil out of themselves, and if it is received into the vessels which have been emptied of self, and so prepared to receive the holy oil, that lamp, well supplied with the holy oil, can to some purpose throw its light on the sinner's path. Very much more light shines from one such lamp onto the path of the wanderer, than would be given by a whole torchlight procession got up for parade and show. O, what a work may be done if we will not stretch ourselves beyond our measure!  {RH, May 9, 1899 par. 14} 

Johann,

Could you please explain how this quote justifies rebellion? And how not allowing women to serve as conference or mission presidents, or to ordain elders and deacons, or to organize churches keeps women from laboring for individual sinners? I really don't see the connection, and I doubt anyone else would either.

[Gregory]

Murcielago asked:

Bob, in the event the GC allows for gender neutral ordination in the fields that wish to proceed with it, but not imposing it on those that don't want it, if they allowed the fields to accept pastors from other fields at whatever the highest level of ordination the accepting field authorizes based on criteria such as gender, would you consider that an acceptable solution.

Bob responded:

Not if in so doing we abandon our historic belief of having the Bible be the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian. If the above suggested accommodation is based on explanations of 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 that use cultural arguments instead of biblical arguments, then no, it would not be acceptable.

Bob is fairly clear in his response.  He gives two situaitons in which he would reject the GC action and he does not give any situations in which he would accept.

Essentially Bob would be doing exacty what he charges others presently with doing--rejecting the action of what he calls the highest spiritual authority on Earth and participating in rebellion.

However, Bob would be doing exactly what he should do.  The GC, even in acting in Session, is a human body.   Regardless of God's leading in the past, one cannot assume that it would always represent the will of God for us.  One is obligated personally to be responsible to the leading of the Holy Spirit and the teaching of the Bible.  Bob would be obligated to do that, if he was convinced that the GC action was not in accord with how the Spirit was leading him and with the Biblical teaching.

But, that is exactly what others are doing.  Bob is criticizing them for doing exactly what they think is the will of God for them.

Those who take the position that we are obligated to follow forever, into the unknown future, remind me of the College of Cardinals in Rome.  Only, the individual members of the College of Cardinals may have more spiritual freedom as they vote than is given to some by those who post here.

For those who might want to see more as to how the College of Cardinals works, they might want to read:  THE LAST CONCLAVE.

 

[Johann]

Here is the complete paragraph:

We believe fully in church organization, but in nothing that is to prescribe the precise way in which we must work; for all minds are not reached by the same methods. Nothing is to be allowed to keep the working servant of God from his fellow man. The individual believer is to labor for the individual sinner. Each person has his own lamp to keep burning; and if the heavenly oil is emptied into these lamps through the golden pipes, if they empty the golden oil out of themselves, and if it is received into the vessels which have been emptied of self, and so prepared to receive the holy oil, that lamp, well supplied with the holy oil, can to some purpose throw its light on the sinner's path. Very much more light shines from one such lamp onto the path of the wanderer, than would be given by a whole torchlight procession got up for parade and show. O, what a work may be done if we will not stretch ourselves beyond our measure!  {RH, May 9, 1899 par. 14} 

Johann,

Could you please explain how this quote justifies rebellion? And how not allowing women to serve as conference or mission presidents, or to ordain elders and deacons, or to organize churches keeps women from laboring for individual sinners? I really don't see the connection, and I doubt anyone else would either.

Who says it justifies rebellion? It justifies doing what you are convinced is the will of God, just like you have stated elsewhere you would do in case the GC votes something you think is not right. This is what we agree on.

Elsewhere Ulicia is quite right in what she states about the officers of the GC. I have it from one of them that the lacking light in your kind of arguments is just what is convincing some of them now that the ordination of women is the right thing for the church.

[Murcielago]

I did a search and failed to find the GC's criteria for ministerial ordination. Could someone who knows where it is post a link? Thanks.

[christian]

I did a search and failed to find the GC's criteria for ministerial ordination. Could someone who knows where it is post a link? Thanks.

 I guess I really need prayer. Anyway I find this topic like many of the other topics counter productive because the church is not doing what it is suppose to anyway. Sometimes I find myself identifying with the thief on the cross wanting to calm my spirit through crime. The church is so political and controlling far beyond what I believe God intended. We have trade marked our name and sued our brethren in the courts of the land. Why deny women ordination when we allow just about everything else I don't get it. We have as much counsel about the dangers of meat eating and lying, stealing, fornication, adultery and the fact that we must overcome all sin through the power of Christ. Yet we willfully deny the very core of our doctrine and teach men thus. What difference does it make whether women are ordained or not? Except, that men want to retain the control of the church and control of the tithe. Women should be ordained not because it is biblical or not but as a sign of the last days, so the church will wake up. I never understood what Jesus frustration must have been until now. No wonder he told them not to ignore the weightier parts of the law, they where totally gone spiritually. I know God is getting ready to rock this church to its very core, and I believe it won't be long. If God doesn't do something soon we will all be lost. It is time for God to take control of the reigns of the church, Lord help us. We have a bunch of good people in the church, which is so diabolical because they are actually a hindrance to the Christian development. The elders lay hands on the people and because of thus the people die faster. There is a retreat from the ultimate righteousness by faith message that we can overcome sin. Instead we are left with a knowledge of the truth but not the power to perform it. Thus it is necessary to concentrate on the things we can control, one is the act of performing ordination, whether of women or men. But the truth be told if both are left without power what difference does it make? FOR GOODNESS SAKE JUST LET THE WOMEN BE ORDAINED AND BE IN POSITIONS OF POWER. LET THEM GET A PAYCHECK THE SAME SIZE AS THE MEAN. LET THEM ENROLL IN USANA VITAMINS WITH THE INFLUENCE OF THE CHURCH AND GET RICH AND INFLUENTIAL LIKE THE MEN, PLEASE. Don't you realize God came to earth when man was in his worse state and when the church was the most corrupt? Some of these topics I cannot get real serious with. I know some of the people think they are sooooo smart, with all their quotes etc... They believe because they are a pastor or have been one or a lawyer, doctor etc... they are knowledgeable. But the truth of the matter is that their professional stance is what is killing the church and its church members. In almost every case the Lord has to get the uneducated to do his work because the suppose educated are beyond teaching. No one has been able to show how ordaining men or women will add one ounce of spirituality to our church. Why have we not overcome sin by the power of God? And please don't tell me that is impossible and then tell me to keep the Sabbath or I will go postal. Until we teach the people the truth it does not matter who teaches them, we are still lost without power, groping in the dark for a false sense of security. We are left trying to sing up dance up administrate up the power of the Holy Ghost. PLEASE JUST LET THE WOMEN MAKE A LIVING LIKE MEN, PLEASE.

[Murcielago]

Christian, you might recall that in the years leading up to the Civil War, the biggest fight was not the moral issue of slavery, but that of unity. The conservative southern states united under the Democrat party to keep the slaves in subjection. In the North the Republicans had to fight an enormous political battle against the status quo establishment who feared the liberated blacks as much as many cultures fear liberated women.

Whereas the Bible seemingly promotes and endorses slavery, much of the clergy and hierarchy of the mid nineteenth century successfully defended it from scripture, just as others are today.

160 years ago in the USA the morals of the issue were hidden behind a cloud of political and biblical verbiage meant to obscure, but in the end the moral prerogative prevailed. 160 years ago people with dark skin were inferior, today it is women.

160 years ago the fight to maintain slavery was led by white Europeans and Americans. Oddly, today the fight to free the oppressed is led by Europeans and Americans, while the vote of cultures steeped in subjugation of women, some who were once slaves, lead the fight to keep women in spiritual slavery today. And once again, the battle cry of the oppressors is unity.

But take heart Christian, Ellen White spoke out strongly against conservatives who would retard church growth. You are standing up for what you know is right, and in the end right will prevail, as the Bible and SOP predict. However, they also predict that the majority would first fall away.

[Bob Pickle]

Essentially Bob would be doing exacty what he charges others presently with doing--rejecting the action of what he calls the highest spiritual authority on Earth and participating in rebellion.

How so, Gregory? If the GC Session is the highest authority on earth under God, and a GC Session goes contrary to Scripture or the SoP, God's chosen ways of speaking to His church, how is a choice not to rebel against what God says an act of rebellion?

But, that is exactly what others are doing.  Bob is criticizing them for doing exactly what they think is the will of God for them.

Can you cite for me Bible or SoP passages that mandate the ordination of women as local pastors of local churches, or as conference presidents? If not, then "what they think" is mere personal opinion or preference and not expressly stated "will of God." There is no basis for exalting mere opinion or preference above a GC Session vote.

[Bob Pickle]

I did a search and failed to find the GC's criteria for ministerial ordination. Could someone who knows where it is post a link? Thanks.

The quote from the GC WP is given here: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index.php/topic,2416.msg37896/topicseen.html#msg37896

You can get your own copy at http://www.bibelschule.info/streaming/Working-policy-of-the-General-Conference-of-Seventh-day-Adventists---2005-2006_21970.pdf

[Murcielago]

I did a search and failed to find the GC's criteria for ministerial ordination. Could someone who knows where it is post a link? Thanks.

The quote from the GC WP is given here: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index.php/topic,2416.msg37896/topicseen.html#msg37896

You can get your own copy at http://www.bibelschule.info/streaming/Working-policy-of-the-General-Conference-of-Seventh-day-Adventists---2005-2006_21970.pdf

Thanks Bob. And wow! That's like trying to read through the IRS tax codes. Lol!

[Johann]

But take heart Christian, Ellen White spoke out strongly against conservatives who would retard church growth. You are standing up for what you know is right, and in the end right will prevail, as the Bible and SOP predict. However, they also predict that the majority would first fall away.

 This might  be just what is happening in the near future - again.  Even the good General Conference has often been against the methods of church growth called for by Ellen White from the time they chased her to Australia to 2012.

At least some of those who signed the recent plea for delay did so because they realize that more and more of those honest people who have previously rejected the ordination of women discover from reading the loudest objection today against the objection of the ordination of women, that they are venturing more and more out on thin ice as they discover themselves the weakness of their argument, and how they have to reject the clear words of Scripture and EGW in order to maintain their stubborn stand, and will eventually abandond the teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

It also appears like we have quite a number of church members who have been brainwashed to think - without really understanding Scripture nor the Spirit of Prophecy - they just follow the crowd to think the real sign of truth is to object to having women abstain from doing the work God has called them to do. What a deception! This might soon drive the majority of our members to abandon ship as predicted.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I think that the falling away that was predicted is in reference to the tares leaving more so than the wheat.

[SDAminister]

Johann, Gregory, Murcielago, et al,
How is it that you, all so many years ago, decided to join the SDA church, a church so pervasively dedicated to the "slavery" and "subjugation" of women?

How is it that you received sustentation from this "evil" church? Did you swallow your convictions in order to keep the paychecks flowing?

SDAminister