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[Gregory]

How is it that you received sustentation from this "evil" church? Did you swallow your convictions in order to keep the paychecks flowing?

The above is a clear example of the missinformation that is posted here and the false assumptions that people make.  To set the record straight:

1)  I do not recieve any retirement pays from the SDA denomination.
2)  I am employed full-time by the Federal (US) government.  While the SDA denomination does not employ me, it has the right under the law to terminate my employment from the Federal government.
3) When the denomination, in North America, allows a minister to go to work for the Federal government, under the conditions that I first began to work for the Federal government, that employee loses all rights to recieve any retirement pay from the denomination.

How is it that you, all so many years ago, decided to join the SDA church, a church so pervasively dedicated to the "slavery" and "subjugation" of women?

Your description of the SDA Church is inflamatory, does not fit my picture of it and your sarcasm detracts from your message.

I joined and I have remained in the SDA Church because God has led me there.  I look at people and institutions as human and defective in part.  I do not ever expect to find a human institution that is perfect, at least not as long as I am a member.

NOTE:  I have preveiously posted in this forum a very open and blunt statement as to why I have remained a member of the SDA Church.  If you really want an answer to your question, you will find it there.

When I am a part of a human institution I am an agent of change.  I have been employed as SDA Clergy pastoring a congregation.  I have been an agent of  change.  In prior employment by the Federal government, I was an agent of change.  In my present position, employed by the Federal government, I am an agent of change.  Briefly:  I change institutions.  When I can no longer be that agent of change, I leave.

When I leave my present employment, I intend to write about my experiences and how I have been an agent of change.  You simply do not know.  You can beleive me, I will be published.  But, now is not the time.   Right now I can still effectively work for change in the institution that employees me.

[Murcielago]

Johann, Gregory, Murcielago, et al,
How is it that you, all so many years ago, decided to join the SDA church, a church so pervasively dedicated to the "slavery" and "subjugation" of women?

How is it that you received sustentation from this "evil" church? Did you swallow your convictions in order to keep the paychecks flowing?

SDAminister

I'm sorry you feel that way, and sorry to see an SDA minister feel that he needs to sink to sarcastic zingers in a respectful discussion where there are differences. Bob and I have differences, but we have consistently discussed them in a respectful manner toward each other. Although I don't agree with everything he says, I have a great respect for him.

[Johann]

Johann, Gregory, Murcielago, et al,
How is it that you, all so many years ago, decided to join the SDA church, a church so pervasively dedicated to the "slavery" and "subjugation" of women?

How is it that you received sustentation from this "evil" church? Did you swallow your convictions in order to keep the paychecks flowing?

SDAminister

As a reply to your sarcasm:

1. I do not receive a sustentation from the SDA church because that has been discontinued in this part of the world.

2. The church I belong to and have served, has for many years employed female pastors and is only waiting for the General Conference to be obedient to the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW to ordain the female pastors that are working for us. 

[Artiste]

Johann, Gregory, Murcielago, et al,
How is it that you, all so many years ago, decided to join the SDA church, a church so pervasively dedicated to the "slavery" and "subjugation" of women?

How is it that you received sustentation from this "evil" church? Did you swallow your convictions in order to keep the paychecks flowing?

SDAminister

I'm sorry you feel that way, and sorry to see an SDA minister feel that he needs to sink to sarcastic zingers in a respectful discussion where there are differences. Bob and I have differences, but we have consistently discussed them in a respectful manner toward each other. Although I don't agree with everything he says, I have a great respect for him.

I have respect for all of you, but considering the inflammatory remarks made from time to time by the proponents of WO, I don't feel that SDAminister's comments are out of line.

[Murcielago]

Johann, Gregory, Murcielago, et al,
How is it that you, all so many years ago, decided to join the SDA church, a church so pervasively dedicated to the "slavery" and "subjugation" of women?

How is it that you received sustentation from this "evil" church? Did you swallow your convictions in order to keep the paychecks flowing?

SDAminister

I'm sorry you feel that way, and sorry to see an SDA minister feel that he needs to sink to sarcastic zingers in a respectful discussion where there are differences. Bob and I have differences, but we have consistently discussed them in a respectful manner toward each other. Although I don't agree with everything he says, I have a great respect for him.

I have respect for all of you, but considering the inflammatory remarks made from time to time by the proponents of WO, I don't feel that SDAminister's comments are out of line.

I don't disagree. There has been a lot of inflammatory language from both sides in this discussion. And I'm sure there will be more before its over. I was just surprised to see it from him, but I wouldn't say he was out of line for expressing himself. It's just how this discussion seems to go.

[Gregory]

Sarcasm IL can live with better than falsehood.

Falshhood has not been lilmited tdo one side.

As falsehood can stem from ignorance, rather than evil intent, I can live with it better than the personal attacks on people's motives.  Both were clearly present in the psot bySDA Minister.

I agree with prior comments about Bob Pickle.    He and I clearly differ on some points.  However, in the recent discussions that he and I have had in this forum, he has generally been appropriate.  I have appreciated that very much.

Why do I say "generally?"  Because I Do not consider comments that he has made in regard to the ordiantion of dogs as approriate.

[Bob Pickle]

At least some of those who signed the recent plea for delay ....

Johann, the above excerpt concerns me, as it leaves the impression that you support rebellion. I have no issue with someone who wants to promote the idea of WO, as long as they use biblical rather than cultural arguments. But I do take issue with any support of rebellion,whether it comes from someone who is pro-WO or someone who is anti-WO.

Why do I say "generally?"  Because I Do not consider comments that he has made in regard to the ordiantion of dogs as approriate.

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that one. If people discussing gay "marriage" can point out the absurdity of the notion that we can marry whatever we want by talking about marrying a cat or dog or whatever, then certainly people discussing WO can point out the absurdity of the notion that unions can ordain whatever they want by talking about unions ordaining a cat or dog or whatever.

Personally, I think that the reason my comments to that effect were deemed inappropriate is because my point cannot be refuted in any other way.

[Bob Pickle]

2. The church I belong to and have served, has for many years employed female pastors and is only waiting for the General Conference to be obedient to the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW to ordain the female pastors that are working for us.

I'm glad they are waiting. But where is the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW that: (a) Men and women ministers may primarily serve as local pastors of local churches? (b) Women may be "invested with full ecclesiastical authority" "to baptize" and to "organize churches" (LP 42)?

You said that there is a "clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW," and yet you have never quoted for us this clear call to do (a) and (b) above. If it is that clear, then by all means settle the controversy and quote the clear call for us.

[Daryl Fawcett]

2. The church I belong to and have served, has for many years employed female pastors and is only waiting for the General Conference to be obedient to the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW to ordain the female pastors that are working for us.

I'm glad they are waiting. But where is the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW that: (a) Men and women ministers may primarily serve as local pastors of local churches? (b) Women may be "invested with full ecclesiastical authority" "to baptize" and to "organize churches" (LP 42)?

You said that there is a "clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW," and yet you have never quoted for us this clear call to do (a) and (b) above. If it is that clear, then by all means settle the controversy and quote the clear call for us.

I wonder why nobody has taken up this challenge presented here by Bob?

[Snoopy]

Maybe because quietly, one by one, folks are learning the consequences of doing just that.

[Dedication]

"Sister Caro Very Capable Woman—
Sister Caro is a superior dentist. She has all the work she can do. She is a tall stately woman, but sociable and companionable. You would love her if you should see her. She does not hoard her means, she puts it into bags which wax not old. She handles an immense amount of money, and she uses the money to educate young men to become laborers for the Master. I am greatly attached to her. She holds her diploma as dentist and her credentials as minister.
 She speaks to the church when there is no minister, so you see that she is a very capable woman. Her husband is a physician and surgeon."—Letter 33, 1893, p. 2  MR678   {9MR 25.1}

 Sister Caro not only does her business, but she has a ministerial license [MRS. CARO IS LISTED IN THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST YEARBOOK FOR 1894, P. 7, AS MINISTERIAL "LICENTIATE."] and bears many burdens in their church at Napier [New Zealand]. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable.
Manuscript 22, 1893, p. 2. (Untitled, July 12, 1893.)  {9MR 25.2}

[Gregory]

I wonder why nobody has taken up this challenge presented here by Bob?

A challenge does not have to be aacceepted, jsut because it was made.

I remind you of the recent litigation where Bob asked the U.S. Supreme Court for a Writ.  That was a challoenge which gave 3-ABN the oopportunity to rebut the issuance of a Writ.  The attorney who represented 3-ABN refused to take up the challenge and attempt to rebut the request that Bob had made.

In the end, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to grant the request for a writ.  There was no need for the 3-ABN attorney to respond to the challenge.

[Johann]

2. The church I belong to and have served, has for many years employed female pastors and is only waiting for the General Conference to be obedient to the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW to ordain the female pastors that are working for us.

I'm glad they are waiting. But where is the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW that: (a) Men and women ministers may primarily serve as local pastors of local churches? (b) Women may be "invested with full ecclesiastical authority" "to baptize" and to "organize churches" (LP 42)?

You said that there is a "clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW," and yet you have never quoted for us this clear call to do (a) and (b) above. If it is that clear, then by all means settle the controversy and quote the clear call for us.

I wonder why nobody has taken up this challenge presented here by Bob?

Because I see no reason to repeat myself again and again.

[Daryl Fawcett]

2. The church I belong to and have served, has for many years employed female pastors and is only waiting for the General Conference to be obedient to the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW to ordain the female pastors that are working for us.

I'm glad they are waiting. But where is the clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW that: (a) Men and women ministers may primarily serve as local pastors of local churches? (b) Women may be "invested with full ecclesiastical authority" "to baptize" and to "organize churches" (LP 42)?

You said that there is a "clear call of God through Scripture and the writings of EGW," and yet you have never quoted for us this clear call to do (a) and (b) above. If it is that clear, then by all means settle the controversy and quote the clear call for us.

I wonder why nobody has taken up this challenge presented here by Bob?

Because I see no reason to repeat myself again and again.

Can you show me where you already answered that question?

[Gregory]

Daryl, my friend and I seriously consider you to be my friend.

Johan has responded to the question that he has been asked.  There is no reason for him to repeat himself again.

He and I have both been challenged  to provide clear answers to questions that he and I have responded to in the past.  Our answers have not satisfied people who contnue to ask the questions.  Current challenges are generally phrased with a: Provide a clear stataement where . . . . .  [insert the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy says . . . .].  It is clear that there is no value in repeating answers that have been rejected in the past.  So, why should we repeat them?