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[Johann]

It is arguments such as the one presented to open this thread that shows me that the spirit driving the resistance is not the right spirit.
The outright falsehood of the title  for one thing.
Do we now have to resort to false "headlines" to "put women in their place"?
The illogical reasoning presented that leaps from recognition of women as servents of God, to equate that with recognition of people living in active sin as spiritual leaders, is outright perposterous.
Bigotry is not part of Christ's way, it's not the way He treated women.

In fact, Christ was in rebellion against the established norms of His day as He, a male, talked with women and encouraged them to follow Him and minister to Him.
And while often in rebellion to established traditions, He was NEVER in rebellion against the principles of heaven.

It wasn't just 12 men that walked with Jesus from place to place during His three years of ministry, there were many women as well. 


Luke 8:1-2   And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,  And certain women... Mary called Magdalene...And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

And who was it that DID NOT run and hide when the mobs turned against Jesus?

Matt.  27:55   And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 
 27:56   Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. 
Mark  15:40   There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 
 15:41   (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.  

Who was it that stayed with Jesus during the terrible crises of His life when it was no longer easy to be one of his followers?  When popular opinion turned, the men ran for their lives and hid (with only one exception, John, who recovered himself).  One of His closest disciples betrayed Him, another denied Him, all ran and hid, locking themselves in a room for "fear of the Jews".

BUT MANY women, not just those named above, but many who had been following Him for the past years from Galilee and Jerusalem, ministering to Him, taking care of His needs, being His disciples, stayed! 
It was the women who went to the tomb.
They were the ones to whom angels appeared with the Good News.

They were the FIRST to believe and to spread the news of His resurrection.

They were commissioned to -- "   "go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead;  Matt. 28:7
 28:8   And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 
 28:9   And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 
 28:10   Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.


And now comes the main reason why men were chosen as apostles -- BECAUSE MEN so often WON'T LISTEN to women. 
 
The men refused to believe, reasoning the women were just telling "idle tales".

But if it weren't for the women in the early church, and their leadership on the local levels, the church would not have grown with the success that it did. 

The concept that women have no ability to reason and chose their religious affiliation independant of the man (or make any other logical decisions) was engrained in the mindset of the day.
As Murcielago pointed out -- that mindset was still alive and well in America back in 1918. 

And, as seen in the first post, is still alive today.   Women are regarded in the same class as people living in sin, thus can be given no spiritual authority.  If we allow women to minister, the reasoning goes,  we will have to allow "fornicators,  idolaters,  adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind,  the thieves, the covetous, the drunkards,the revilers, and the extortioners," (adp from 1 Cor. 6:9-10) to also minister.
What strange reasoning.

In truth all -- men and women need to be cleansed FIRST -- for everyone is born carnal, they must be born again,
that is the true criterion for ministry.
1 Cor. 6:11   And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.   

I'd say a mighty AMEN to every point you have made here, Ulicia!

[Gregory]

Johann said:

No matter how you turn it, the ordination is worthless for employment unless the employing conference accepts the ordination and it is reconfirmed at the next conference elections where each pastor's ordination is evaluated by a committee and the proposal by the committee is accepted by a majority of the delegates. No loophole there. I think if you go far enough back this happened annually. Later every other year. Now a number of conferences do it every third year to save traveling and other expenses.

I hate to seem to be arguing minor wording issues with my friend Johann.  There is a fundamental correctness in what he said below, although I have a little problem with some of his wording.

In the SDA Church, ordination is for life unless annuled.  Ordination is not affected by employment.  Unless annuled, one remains an ordained minister regardless of employment.

Credentials authorize the level on which one is to function.  A credentialed ordained minister is authorized to function as an ordained minister.  Committees grant credentials.  Due to a change in job function an ordained minister may be granted the Missionary Credentials or Commissioned Minister Credentials, or something else.  Granting such authorized that ordained minister to function on the level of the Missionary Credentials or those of the Commissioned Minister, or whatever else has been granted.  Regardless,  the authorization to function on that level did not affect the fact that the person remained ordained, just authorized to function on a different level.

Remember, in most (not all) cases, it is the Union that approves ordination, not the local Conference.  So, also, it is not the local Conference that removes a person from the status of an ordained minister.  That is the function of higher a higher level of the denomination which may act on the recommendation of the local Conference.

[Artiste]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

Along with the the part where kids learn about the time long ago when homosexuals were not allow to be clergy in the church?

[Bob Pickle]

No matter how you turn it, the ordination is worthless for employment unless the employing conference accepts the ordination and it is reconfirmed at the next conference elections where each pastor's ordination is evaluated by a committee and the proposal by the committee is accepted by a majority of the delegates.

As Gregory has pointed out, ordination is not about employment. Ordination is about a conferral of authority, as Ellen White described when commenting on Acts 13.

[Murcielago]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

Along with the the part where kids learn about the time long ago when homosexuals were not allow to be clergy in the church?

Hypothetically speaking, women's ordination could lead to ordination of gays, dogs, and peacocks (all of which have been listed as potential candidates as a result of the CUC vote), but it is not fact. it is hypothetical. 94 years ago when the 19 amendment was ratified, the same hypothetical arguments were made about children, farm animals, and pets. You have full rights as a full citizen of this country because rational people chose to ignore the irrational arguments of tabloid sensationalism, and dishonest headlines.

[Artiste]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

Along with the the part where kids learn about the time long ago when homosexuals were not allow to be clergy in the church?

Hypothetically speaking, women's ordination could lead to ordination of gays, dogs, and peacocks (all of which have been listed as potential candidates as a result of the CUC vote), but it is not fact. it is hypothetical. 94 years ago when the 19 amendment was ratified, the same hypothetical arguments were made about children, farm animals, and pets. You have full rights as a full citizen of this country because rational people chose to ignore the irrational arguments of tabloid sensationalism, and dishonest headlines.

Aren't you ignoring the fact that a definitive list of Protestant churches have made exactly that progression?

[Bob Pickle]

Artiste has a valid point.

Once we take the step of exalting non-biblical sources of information above the authority of Scripture, then we have removed an important safeguard. Whether we do or do not ordain sodomites as preachers becomes then a question of who can produce the most convincing non-biblical argument in its favor, or who can pull the best political shenanigans behind the scenes.

It would be as if the First Amendment was reduced to mere jurisprudence rather than divinely endowed rights. If freedom of religion and speech is a right granted by God, Congress cannot go contrary to it. But if it just a nice legal theory, then given the right logic and the right lawyers, it can be repealed or evaded, or suspended in times of national emergency.

We cannot change our approach to Scripture without opening up Pandora's box. And once the box is opened, how do you close it again? Churches don't seem to mind departing from Scripture, but getting back to Scripture is a rarity.

[Murcielago]

When we allow our kids to get a driver's license and drive a car are we ignoring the list of kids who have accidents on the highway, and are injured and killed? Because some kids drive in an irresponsible manner should they all be painted with the same brush?

The 19th amendment has not resulted in allowing children, farm animals, or pets to vote (although voter fraud has certainly happened) even though it was predicted.

Stating as fact that certain hypothetical results will take place is very different from suggesting that they could. That is the tactic of dishonest politicians in their campaigns.

[Johann]

No matter how you turn it, the ordination is worthless for employment unless the employing conference accepts the ordination and it is reconfirmed at the next conference elections where each pastor's ordination is evaluated by a committee and the proposal by the committee is accepted by a majority of the delegates.

As Gregory has pointed out, ordination is not about employment. Ordination is about a conferral of authority, as Ellen White described when commenting on Acts 13.

OK, so we should not employ our pastors? Would you suggest ordination is just for those who function like local elders and deacons who are not employed by the church? Perhaps not a bad idea. We have had a number of pastors who have not received a salary from the church but lived on other income.

Should we follow Paul by letting the evangelists earn their living by tentmaking? Is this what our discussion is all about?

From all of your reading of working policies, have you found the reason why pastors have to have their credentials renewed at every conference session, but neither local elders nor deacons need to have their ordination approved by any other organization than their own local church?

But the ordination of the local elder and deacon is still valid if he moves to another church, anywhere in the world, provided he is elected to the same position in his new church?

[Artiste]

When we allow our kids to get a driver's license and drive a car are we ignoring the list of kids who have accidents on the highway, and are injured and killed? Because some kids drive in an irresponsible manner should they all be painted with the same brush?

Comparing the ratio of kids who have drivers licences to the number who have accidents with the ratio of Protestant Churches who have progressed to the acceptance of homosexuality with the number who have not will give you very different results, I think.

So that is not a good example, Murcielago.

[Daryl Fawcett]

Thank you Bob for locating these, especially where she says, "I do not recommend that woman should seek to become a voter or officeholder..."

"There are speculations as to woman's rights and duties in regard to voting. Many are in no way disciplined to understand the bearing of important questions. They have lived lives of present gratification because it was the fashion. Women who might develop good intellects and have true moral worth are now mere slaves to fashion. They have not breadth of thought nor cultivated intellect. They can talk understandingly of the latest fashion, the styles of dress, this or that party or delightful ball. Such women are not prepared to intelligently take a prominent position in political matters. They are mere creatures of fashion and circumstance. Let this order of things be changed. Let woman realize the sacredness of her work and, in the strength and fear of God, take up her life mission. Let her educate her children for usefulness in this world and for a fitness for the better world" (3T 565).

"Who can have so deep a love for the souls of men and women for whom Christ died as those who are partakers of His grace? Who can better represent the religion of Christ than Christian women, women who are earnestly laboring to bring souls to the light of truth? Who else is so well adapted to the work of the Sabbath school? The true mother is the true, teacher of children. If with a heart imbued with the love of Christ, she teaches the children of her class, praying with them and for them, she may see souls converted and gathered into the fold of Christ. I do not recommend that woman should seek to become a voter or officeholder; but as a missionary, teaching the truth by epistolary correspondence, distributing reading matter, conversing with families and praying with the mother and children, she may do much and be a blessing" (WM 164-165).

[Daryl Fawcett]

I have been to every session of our Maritime Conference for the last several sessions.   I also served three terms on the Maritime Conference Board of Directors.

I don't remember reviewing the ordination status of any of our ordained ministers.   I do remember doing a yearly salary review of all Conference Employees at our Maritime Conference's Annual Meetings, but nothing to do with their ordination status, etc.

It is also my understanding that even the ordination of local elders is recognized around the world.  If, for example, I were to move and tranfer my membership to a church in Sydney, Australia and they wanted me to elect me as a local elder, they wouldn't need to ordain me again as a local elder.

No matter how you turn it, the ordination is worthless for employment unless the employing conference accepts the ordination and it is reconfirmed at the next conference elections where each pastor's ordination is evaluated by a committee and the proposal by the committee is accepted by a majority of the delegates.

As Gregory has pointed out, ordination is not about employment. Ordination is about a conferral of authority, as Ellen White described when commenting on Acts 13.

OK, so we should not employ our pastors? Would you suggest ordination is just for those who function like local elders and deacons who are not employed by the church? Perhaps not a bad idea. We have had a number of pastors who have not received a salary from the church but lived on other income.

Should we follow Paul by letting the evangelists earn their living by tentmaking? Is this what our discussion is all about?

From all of your reading of working policies, have you found the reason why pastors have to have their credentials renewed at every conference session, but neither local elders nor deacons need to have their ordination approved by any other organization than their own local church?

But the ordination of the local elder and deacon is still valid if he moves to another church, anywhere in the world, provided he is elected to the same position in his new church?

[Gregory]

It is also my understanding that even the ordination of local elders is recognized around the world.  If, for example, I were to move and tranfer my membership to a church in Sydney, Australia and they wanted me to elect me as a local elder, they wouldn't need to ordain me again as a local elder.

Correct, once ordained as an Elder no further ordination is required to serve as an Elder.

However, to function as an Elder one must be elected by teh local congregation at each election period.

[Gregory]

From all of your reading of working policies, have you found the reason why pastors have to have their credentials renewed at every conference session, but neither local elders nor deacons need to have their ordination approved by any other organization than their own local church?

The reason:
1) Elders are considered to serve the local church.  Therefore, the local church has to elect them and the Conference does not normally review the officers who are elected by a local congregation.
2) On the other hand, pastors serve the local Conference, most directly.  Therefore, their credentials are reviewed by the local Conference.

[Dedication]

From what I understand the Unions are responsible for ordination of the Pastors.
The issue of ordaining women was removed from the unions and placed in the General Conference jurisdiction.

Personally I don't see the problem that was the topic of this thread.

Since the world church has not voted to ordain women, any ordaining of women that the columbia Union does is not recognized by the world church.   It would only be recognized in the Columbia Union.  As more unions vote for women's ordination (which they are already considering) the sphere of recognition for ordained women would grow, but until the General Conference votes for women ordination, a woman's ordination would be valid only in the unions that support it.