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[SDAminister]

*See explanation below

One of the rights a man has when he is ordained to the gospel ministry is that his call, his ordination, is recognized worldwide within the SDA church. As such, he can go to teach, preach, and minister anywhere in the world and the worldwide church allows and recognizes this as essential. There is no separate or different ordination for those in Ghana from those in Bolivia. Ministers travel, move, work, and live between all the world fields with total spiritual freedom.

If a minister is ordained in Japan and then goes to work in France, the church in France must recognize this ordination.

Enter CUC. IF a Union can draw up its own guidelines for ordination separate from the world church, then individuals ordained under these laws would, by current order of the church bylaws, be able to serve anywhere in the world at a later time. And the rest of the world would have to recognize their ordination.

But let's suppose that the New Zealand Pacific Union Conference used their new-found "power" to ordain whomever they want AND they ordain homosexuals to the gospel ministry, then all Unions in the world would be compelled to recognize and honor those ordinations, including CUC! Hey, if it's okay to foist their rebellion upon the rest of the church, why not another Union foist a deeper rebellion upon them (would be the thinking)?

CUC is opening a Pandora's box with their rebellion.

Gay pastors, coming to a church near you, thanks to legal precedents set by the CUC.

SDAminister

[Artiste]

*See explanation below

One of the rights a man has when he is ordained to the gospel ministry is that his call, his ordination, is recognized worldwide within the SDA church. As such, he can go to teach, preach, and minister anywhere in the world and the worldwide church allows and recognizes this as essential. There is no separate or different ordination for those in Ghana from those in Bolivia. Ministers travel, move, work, and live between all the world fields with total spiritual freedom.

If a minister is ordained in Japan and then goes to work in France, the church in France must recognize this ordination.

Enter CUC. IF a Union can draw up its own guidelines for ordination separate from the world church, then individuals ordained under these laws would, by current order of the church bylaws, be able to serve anywhere in the world at a later time. And the rest of the world would have to recognize their ordination.

But let's suppose that the New Zealand Pacific Union Conference used their new-found "power" to ordain whomever they want AND they ordain homosexuals to the gospel ministry, then all Unions in the world would be compelled to recognize and honor those ordinations, including CUC! Hey, if it's okay to foist their rebellion upon the rest of the church, why not another Union foist a deeper rebellion upon them (would be the thinking)?

CUC is opening a Pandora's box with their rebellion.

Gay pastors, coming to a church near you, thanks to legal precedents set by the CUC.

SDAminister

That is a sobering thought!

[Murcielago]

August 15, 1918 - the 19th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is ratified, guaranteeing women the right to vote. This current issue in the SDA church is eerily reminiscent of what took place in the years leading up to that historic date. Three times it was brought to the supreme court citing the 14th and 15th amendments, and three times it was struck down. A powerful anti-suffrage lobby developed giving many of the same arguments we are hearing today. It was predicted that the structure on which our government and financial system ran would be radically altered and damaged if women were given the vote. Industry fought it vehemently. Today the arguments seem preposterous.

At the same time that the fight to control the women was going on in the USA, the debate raged in England, Canada, and other countries.

There were the inane arguments that the next step would be pets and farm animals voting if it passed (not unlike some of the outrageous arguments we hear today regarding WO), but here are some of the saner arguments of that time.

 
Against Women Suffrage
  
Because women already have the municipal vote, and are eligible for membership of most local authorities.   These bodies deal with questions of housing, education, care of children, workhouses and so forth, all of which are peculiarly within a woman's sphere.   Parliament, however, has to deal mainly with the administration of a vast Empire, the maintenance of the Army and Navy, and with questions of peace and war, which lie outside the legitimate sphere of woman's influence.
  
Because all government rests ultimately on force, to which women, owing to physical, moral and social reasons, are not capable of con­tributing.
  
Because women are not capable of full citizenship, for the simple reason that they are not available for purposes of national and Imperial defence.   All government rests ultimately on force, to which women, owing to physical, moral and social reasons, are not capable of contributing.
  
Because there is little doubt that the vast majority of women have no desire for the vote.
  
Because the acquirement of the Parliamentary vote would logically involve admission to Parliament itself, and to all Government offices.   It is scarcely possible to imagine a woman being Minister for War, and yet the principles of the Suffragettes involve that and many similar absurdities.
  
Because the United Kingdom is not an isolated state, but the administrative and governing centre of a system of colonies and also of dependencies.   The effect of introducing a large female ele­ment into the Imperial electorate would undoubtedly be to weaken the centre of power in the eyes of these dependent millions.
  
Because past legislation in Parliament shows that the interests of women are perfectly safe in the hands of men.
  
Because Woman Suffrage is based on the idea of the equality of the sexes, and tends to establish those competitive relations which will destroy chivalrous consideration.
  
Because women have at present a vast indirect influence through their menfolk on the politics of this country.
  
Because the physical nature of women unfits them for direct com­petition with men.

[Murcielago]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

[Bob Pickle]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

Can you post for us Ellen White's arguments against women having the right to vote?

[Johann]

*See explanation below

One of the rights a man has when he is ordained to the gospel ministry is that his call, his ordination, is recognized worldwide within the SDA church. As such, he can go to teach, preach, and minister anywhere in the world and the worldwide church allows and recognizes this as essential. There is no separate or different ordination for those in Ghana from those in Bolivia. Ministers travel, move, work, and live between all the world fields with total spiritual freedom.

Where did you pick up this idea?

If a minister is ordained in Japan and then goes to work in France, the church in France must recognize this ordination.

False. The church in France does not have to do that.

Enter CUC. IF a Union can draw up its own guidelines for ordination separate from the world church, then individuals ordained under these laws would, by current order of the church bylaws, be able to serve anywhere in the world at a later time. And the rest of the world would have to recognize their ordination.

False

But let's suppose that the New Zealand Pacific Union Conference used their new-found "power" to ordain whomever they want AND they ordain homosexuals to the gospel ministry, then all Unions in the world would be compelled to recognize and honor those ordinations, including CUC! Hey, if it's okay to foist their rebellion upon the rest of the church, why not another Union foist a deeper rebellion upon them (would be the thinking)?

False

CUC is opening a Pandora's box with their rebellion.

False

Gay pastors, coming to a church near you, thanks to legal precedents set by the CUC.

False

SDAminister

No wonder they manage to get so many people to sign against WO because of the lies and false information thrown out to the members.

[Johann]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

Can you post for us Ellen White's arguments against women having the right to vote?

Did anyone suggest she did? What is the purpose of your question?

[Bob Pickle]

Almost 100 years later the SDA church is finally arriving at that point, and it is eerie to see a part of history we think of as unthinkably outdated alive and fighting for survival today. So strange to hear arguments that have faded into history come alive again. 100 years from now I suppose this will be in the church history books as kids learn about the time when women were finally freed and given equal rights in the church.

Can you post for us Ellen White's arguments against women having the right to vote?

Did anyone suggest she did? What is the purpose of your question?

It's not a suggestion. It's a fact. Ellen White opposed giving women the vote, and Adventists being involved in pushing that issue.

Murcielago posted arguments against women having the right to vote. I thought it would be good to compare the posted arguments with Ellen White's argument(s).

[Bob Pickle]

*See explanation below

One of the rights a man has when he is ordained to the gospel ministry is that his call, his ordination, is recognized worldwide within the SDA church. As such, he can go to teach, preach, and minister anywhere in the world and the worldwide church allows and recognizes this as essential. There is no separate or different ordination for those in Ghana from those in Bolivia. Ministers travel, move, work, and live between all the world fields with total spiritual freedom.

Where did you pick up this idea?

Johann, see GC WP L 40 which is entitled, "Ordained to World Church." That's part of the issue. Within Adventism, we currently don't have a way to not recognize the ordination of someone on a region by region basis. If someone is ordained, they are ordained.

[Gregory]

I agree that there is much that is being said on this issue that is false.  However, both sides are partially correct in a comment that is being made in regard to ordination:

1)  It is true that ordination is for the world church and is to be recognized world wide.

2) That recognition means that an ordained minister, traveling to another part of the world will not be required to be ordained in that part of the world in order to function as an  ordained minister.  This is the sense in which ordination is world-wide and is to be recognized world-wide.

3) However, an ordained minister can not simply travel to another part of the world and begin to function in that part of the world as an ordained minister unless that ordained minister recieves permission to do so.  No organization is forced to allow that ordained minister to function as such.

Let me give so me examples:

As a military chaplain, I was authorized to function as a SDA minister in any part of the world as long as I functioned  in relation to members and families of U.S. military.  When I was stationed in other countries, I had to get permision to perform as clergy in any situation outside of the military.  Local leadership decided whether or not I preached in their church and I did.  Local leadership decided whether or not I could baptize someone in their church building and I did.  That decision was that of local leadership and it was not mine to make.

We have evangelists who travel the world holding evangelistic meetings.  When they are asked to come and hold meetings, they are automaticly given permission to function as SDA Clergy.  That goes with the request to come.
 
There are SDA Clergy who are ordained in other countries who do not meet requirements that we havev in the U.S.  We are not forced to allow them to come here and funciton as such.

At the same time, the local leadership can put restrictions on a request to come.  Back when I was in the Seminary, we had a General Conference leader who was asked to visit another country.  He was well known for his mucical abilities with a certain musical instrument.  When he was asked to visit that country the request included a statement that he was not to play his musical instrument in any of thier churches as local custom considered that instrument to not be acceptable in religiouis worship.  He told us Seminary students that himself.

I hope that this clairfies the situation.

[Daryl Fawcett]

This is all that I could find so far in my EGW-CD on what she said about women and voting:

A Discussion of Women's Suffrage.-- I called upon Mrs. Graves. She had a burden upon her mind and ever since she knew I was at home she desired to see me. She said she felt that she must talk out her feelings to me. She is desirous that women's suffrage should be looked into by me. She says women ought to vote, and she related many things of startling character which were legalized in France and St. Louis, and an effort was made to carry them out in Chicago this year, but [the effort] failed. Houses of ill fame are legalized. Women who travel alone through those cities, if they are the least suspicious of them, are taken up by the authorities and their cases are investigated. If they are diseased they are placed in the care of the doctors and cured. Then they are fit for the visits of men and are placed in the legalized home for men to satisfy their lusts upon. No examination is made of the men, and where this law is carried into effect the crime and immorality resemble the condition of the world which existed previous to the Flood.  {10MR 69.1}
     
Mrs. Graves viewed the matter as I do in regard to the increase of crime and demoralization of society. She says women must vote if this law is [to be] withstood. We had a long talk in regard to temperance. I told her that my mind was unprepared for any such matter as women voting.[/u] She had been thinking and dwelling upon these things and her mind was ripe upon them, while my work was of another character. We were doing upon the point of temperance what no other class of people in the world were. We were as much in favor of a pledge against tobacco as liquor. {10MR 69.2} 
   
"So am I," said she. "I am against the use of tobacco in any form." We were interrupted by company and I returned home. Strange things are developing. God help us to occupy the right position in all places and at all times.--Letter 40a, 1874, pp. 2, 3. (Written from Battle Creek, Mich., to James White, July 10, 1874.)  {10MR 70.1} 

The bolded and underlined part of the above quote was the closest I could come to finding an anwer in relation to herf thoughts on women having the right to vote.

[Dedication]

It is arguments such as the one presented to open this thread that shows me that the spirit driving the resistance is not the right spirit.
The outright falsehood of the title  for one thing.
Do we now have to resort to false "headlines" to "put women in their place"?
The illogical reasoning presented that leaps from recognition of women as servents of God, to equate that with recognition of people living in active sin as spiritual leaders, is outright perposterous.
Bigotry is not part of Christ's way, it's not the way He treated women.

In fact, Christ was in rebellion against the established norms of His day as He, a male, talked with women and encouraged them to follow Him and minister to Him.
And while often in rebellion to established traditions, He was NEVER in rebellion against the principles of heaven.

It wasn't just 12 men that walked with Jesus from place to place during His three years of ministry, there were many women as well. 


Luke 8:1-2   And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,  And certain women... Mary called Magdalene...And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

And who was it that DID NOT run and hide when the mobs turned against Jesus?

Matt.  27:55   And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 
 27:56   Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. 
Mark  15:40   There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 
 15:41   (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.  

Who was it that stayed with Jesus during the terrible crises of His life when it was no longer easy to be one of his followers?  When popular opinion turned, the men ran for their lives and hid (with only one exception, John, who recovered himself).  One of His closest disciples betrayed Him, another denied Him, all ran and hid, locking themselves in a room for "fear of the Jews".

BUT MANY women, not just those named above, but many who had been following Him for the past years from Galilee and Jerusalem, ministering to Him, taking care of His needs, being His disciples, stayed! 
It was the women who went to the tomb.
They were the ones to whom angels appeared with the Good News.

They were the FIRST to believe and to spread the news of His resurrection.

They were commissioned to -- "   "go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead;  Matt. 28:7
 28:8   And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 
 28:9   And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 
 28:10   Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.


And now comes the main reason why men were chosen as apostles -- BECAUSE MEN so often WON'T LISTEN to women. 
 
The men refused to believe, reasoning the women were just telling "idle tales".

But if it weren't for the women in the early church, and their leadership on the local levels, the church would not have grown with the success that it did. 

The concept that women have no ability to reason and chose their religious affiliation independant of the man (or make any other logical decisions) was engrained in the mindset of the day.
As Murcielago pointed out -- that mindset was still alive and well in America back in 1918. 

And, as seen in the first post, is still alive today.   Women are regarded in the same class as people living in sin, thus can be given no spiritual authority.  If we allow women to minister, the reasoning goes,  we will have to allow "fornicators,  idolaters,  adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind,  the thieves, the covetous, the drunkards,the revilers, and the extortioners," (adp from 1 Cor. 6:9-10) to also minister.
What strange reasoning.

In truth all -- men and women need to be cleansed FIRST -- for everyone is born carnal, they must be born again,
that is the true criterion for ministry.
1 Cor. 6:11   And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.   

[Dedication]

This is all that I could find so far in my EGW-CD on what she said about women and voting:

A Discussion of Women's Suffrage.-- I called upon Mrs. Graves. She had a burden upon her mind and ever since she knew I was at home she desired to see me. She said she felt that she must talk out her feelings to me. She is desirous that women's suffrage should be looked into by me. She says women ought to vote, and she related many things of startling character which were legalized in France and St. Louis, and an effort was made to carry them out in Chicago this year, but [the effort] failed. Houses of ill fame are legalized. Women who travel alone through those cities, if they are the least suspicious of them, are taken up by the authorities and their cases are investigated. If they are diseased they are placed in the care of the doctors and cured. Then they are fit for the visits of men and are placed in the legalized home for men to satisfy their lusts upon. No examination is made of the men, and where this law is carried into effect the crime and immorality resemble the condition of the world which existed previous to the Flood.  {10MR 69.1}
     
Mrs. Graves viewed the matter as I do in regard to the increase of crime and demoralization of society. She says women must vote if this law is [to be] withstood. We had a long talk in regard to temperance. I told her that my mind was unprepared for any such matter as women voting.[/u] She had been thinking and dwelling upon these things and her mind was ripe upon them, while my work was of another character. We were doing upon the point of temperance what no other class of people in the world were. We were as much in favor of a pledge against tobacco as liquor. {10MR 69.2} 
   
"So am I," said she. "I am against the use of tobacco in any form." We were interrupted by company and I returned home. Strange things are developing. God help us to occupy the right position in all places and at all times.--Letter 40a, 1874, pp. 2, 3. (Written from Battle Creek, Mich., to James White, July 10, 1874.)  {10MR 70.1} 

The bolded and underlined part of the above quote was the closest I could come to finding an anwer in relation to herf thoughts on women having the right to vote.

I wonder if she would say the same today.
How many threads have been started on this subject of women's ordination in the last couple days?
Are minds too centered on this, when our work should be "of another character"?

Even when the ordination of women came up in 1881 -- it appears EGW didn't enter into the issue one way or the other,  she had work of "another character".

One author -- I think it was a link to Spectrum magazine -- made an important point.
What is needed today is women who will work in ministry for the glory of God regardless of whether or not the church admistration ordains or not.  When the church is blessed by their ministry and drawn closer to God through their encouragement, they will more readily show their gratitude with approbriate official recognition.

What is needed is not a war as to who can be the authority over who -- but all recognizing that Christ is the head of the church and we are His vessels to bring the Good News to others.

It's when this gospel of the kingdom is preached in all that world that Jesus will come.  (Matt. 24)

[Bob Pickle]

"There are speculations as to woman's rights and duties in regard to voting. Many are in no way disciplined to understand the bearing of important questions. They have lived lives of present gratification because it was the fashion. Women who might develop good intellects and have true moral worth are now mere slaves to fashion. They have not breadth of thought nor cultivated intellect. They can talk understandingly of the latest fashion, the styles of dress, this or that party or delightful ball. Such women are not prepared to intelligently take a prominent position in political matters. They are mere creatures of fashion and circumstance. Let this order of things be changed. Let woman realize the sacredness of her work and, in the strength and fear of God, take up her life mission. Let her educate her children for usefulness in this world and for a fitness for the better world" (3T 565).

"Who can have so deep a love for the souls of men and women for whom Christ died as those who are partakers of His grace? Who can better represent the religion of Christ than Christian women, women who are earnestly laboring to bring souls to the light of truth? Who else is so well adapted to the work of the Sabbath school? The true mother is the true, teacher of children. If with a heart imbued with the love of Christ, she teaches the children of her class, praying with them and for them, she may see souls converted and gathered into the fold of Christ. I do not recommend that woman should seek to become a voter or officeholder; but as a missionary, teaching the truth by epistolary correspondence, distributing reading matter, conversing with families and praying with the mother and children, she may do much and be a blessing" (WM 164-165).

[Johann]

*See explanation below

One of the rights a man has when he is ordained to the gospel ministry is that his call, his ordination, is recognized worldwide within the SDA church. As such, he can go to teach, preach, and minister anywhere in the world and the worldwide church allows and recognizes this as essential. There is no separate or different ordination for those in Ghana from those in Bolivia. Ministers travel, move, work, and live between all the world fields with total spiritual freedom.

Where did you pick up this idea?

Johann, see GC WP L 40 which is entitled, "Ordained to World Church." That's part of the issue. Within Adventism, we currently don't have a way to not recognize the ordination of someone on a region by region basis. If someone is ordained, they are ordained.

No matter how you turn it, the ordination is worthless for employment unless the employing conference accepts the ordination and it is reconfirmed at the next conference elections where each pastor's ordination is evaluated by a committee and the proposal by the committee is accepted by a majority of the delegates. No loophole there. I think if you go far enough back this happened annually. Later every other year. Now a number of conferences do it every third year to save traveling and other expenses.