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[Johann]

Ministry for women as defined in the Australasian context is gospel ministry:

"There are
women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than
the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and
when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women."
Isaiah 56:1-8 applied to the Australasian context:  '"Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye
-9-judgment, and do justice; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be
revealed....The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to
him, beside those that are gathered unto him.'
"This is the grand and noble work that the minister and his wife may do by qualifying
themselves as faithful shepherds and guardians of the flock....
"Those women who labor to teach souls to seek for the new birth in Christ Jesus, are
doing a precious work. They consecrate themselves to God, and they are just as verily laborers
for God as are their husbands. They can enter families to which ministers could find no access.
They can listen to the sorrows of their depressed and oppressed. They can shed rays of light into
discouraged souls. They can pray with them. They can open the Scriptures, and enlighten them
from a 'Thus saith the Lord.'"
Doors should be opened for consecrated women to enter public,  Conference-paid work:
"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this
work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth
earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field."

(Ellen White to
J H Kellogg, C H Jones, G A Irwin, Mrs Baker, March 22,  1898 ("The Laborer is Worthy of His
Hire," Ms 43a-1898).
That which Ellen White sought for the Australasian field, she likewise sought for the
local churches:

In the newly made churches converted men are to be appointed as officers. Humble
workers, both men and women, are to take hold of the work. There is a deep-seated
necessity for work in every line. There are to be no ornamental, adorning spirits in the
church. Appoint wise men and women to minister in word and deed in the new
churches.

25
About five years after Mrs White's  1895 statement about women to be ordained for
Australasian ministry, she made an elaboration that helps explain her intent:

After the camp-meeting the work should be continued. A number of workers should
remain, and a suitable place should be provided for a mission home. Consecrated women
should engage in Bible work from house to house. Thus they come close to the people.
Finding the sick, they pray with them, and do what they can for their relief from suffering.
Thus an interest is awakened, and hearts are won. The work is not left in uncertainty. The
workers do not follow impulse. Their work is to arouse the churches to do their duty as
Christians. Thus the ensign of truth is to be uplifted. In every place where no suitable
building can be secured, a church should be erected. And those who have received the
truth are to be instructed to look after the poor and the orphans. We are commanded to do
good to all men, but especially to those that are of the household of faith. It is right that
25  Ellen White to Brother Irwin, Oct 11,  1899, p 2 1-157.
-10-we should expect help from the community where the work is carried on.

26

[Bob Pickle]

Johann,

Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.

But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.

Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.

[Johann]

W C White and the Australasian Context
Soon after the formation of the Australasian Union Conference in 1894, President W C
White, A G Daniells, and W A Colcord, senior officers in the Union sent what they called an
"Epistle" to "the officers of the [local]  churches" in Australia, Tasmania, and New Zealand. The
officers of the local church who should read this "epistle" first were listed as elders, deacons, the
clerk, the Sabbath-School Superintendent, and the Tract Society Librarian" and any other officers
if there should be any. The six-page listing of instructions signed by Union Conference President
W C White stressed that "The Church of God, is not only a fold where the sheep and lambs are to
be fed, but it also [is]  an army, to be trained for conquest."
Because of the lack of a stationary pastorate within 19th century Adventism, the local
church was instructed:

The Senior Elder is Chairman of the meeting, unless another person is chosen to preside.
When a minister is present, he is by virtue of his position in the conference, a member of
the council, and if well acquainted with the affairs of the church, he may properly be
requested to preside.

27
Besides describing the various meetings relating to the local church, four subjects for
consideration were listed:  1.  spiritual condition of the church; 2. business affairs of the church; 3.
missionary work of the church; 4. The Sabbath School. While the local church was asked to
respond to the "demands of the times" within its community and "who should be encouraged to
engage more extensively in the work" and "how may they labor to the best advantage" and
whether there was sufficient funding for the literature to be distributed, there was clearly no
provision at the local church level to finance local church members to engage in such work. The
local church would engage privately in the work that Mrs White described in her 1895 Review
and Herald statement of July 6,  1895.
In February 1895, W C White attended the New Zealand Conference proceedings as a
delegate at large. At that session, Margaret Caro was again voted the ministerial license by the
conference. That made her one of a number of Seventh-day Adventist women to be placed within
the ministerial category as Seventh-day Adventists defined ministry in the  19th  century.
W C White's letter to his mother, February 25,  1895, gives significant insight into the
import accorded the women ministers in Australasia as directed by the Australasian Union
Conference:
26
Ellen White "The Work to Be Done," Feb 28,  1900 pp 7-8, emphasis supplied.
27  W C White "To the Officers of the Seventh-day Adventist Churches," nd. WCW Bk 4,
pp 470-75.
-11-

Miss Walker was encouraged to go to Queensland, because we felt that the completion of
her training was a matter of much importance and we thought that Eld Starr was best
prepared to give her the instruction that she needed. If I am correctly informed, Annie and
Mariah Pierce, from Ballarratt, will soon be moving to NSW and after they have had a
visit with the Reekie family, they would no doubt be willing to engage in Bible work.
They are women of much experience, wisdom, and tact, and would be splendid help in
Sydney, if we could afford to employ them.

28
It is obvious that trained women Bible workers, paid by the Australasian Union
Conference from tithe funds, and crucial members of itinerant evangelistic teams, were
functioning throughout Australia and New Zealand prior to Mrs White's ordination statement of
July 1895. That fact should provide insight to Mrs White's expression: "let every individual
labor privately or publicly," in spreading the gospel message.
In a letter written May 1895, W C White makes it explicit that women ministers in
Australia were paid from tithe funds (as were the male Bible workers):
I believe that if a man and his wife who have had a good degree of experience with our
work in its various branches, would come here, and say, "Now I will identify my interest
with the brethren in Tasmania, for the building up of the work here, so long as the
brethren will stand by us, and the Union Conference think we should work in that field."
Then if he would situate himself so that his expenses were very small, so that he could
live on a salary that was commensurate with the small incomes of the brethren, I believe
that he would be able to stir them up to a more general, and more faithful payment of
tithes, and that before long, there would be enough raised in Tasmania, to pay the
minister,  and to support one Bible worker besides 29

[Johann]

Johann,

Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.

But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.

Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.

That is not the question. Does it matter who's wife the woman is? The whole point is that Ellen White made it clear that these women are to be ordained, even if they are only working part time in evangelism. You have yourself stated several times that evangelism is the criteria, and not pastoring a large church. Here you have what you have been asking for. Ellen White laid out the divine plan for the gospel commission for that time. In all of your picking of articles you have demonstrated how many of these men refused to follow the divine plan to prove that they did not like female pastors. Your arguments are working against what you are trying to say.

Ellen White made out the blueprint about 130 years ago. Ordaining even part time women, so why not full time working women? You have been demonstrating how reluctant these men were at that time. With their reluctance they have kept back the work of God for more than a 100 years. Are you trying to praise them for their disobedience and rebellion? And are you praising people for remaining disobedient to the divine vision even today?

We should have been in Heaven by now - you know that. How do we ever get there as long as those pious looking people are holding back the force God had appointed already 130 years ago? Read it for yourself with your eyes open.

[Johann]

Christian Help Work
Among the evangelistic tools used by A G Daniells (president of the Australasian Union
Conference in  1899), at the Toowoomba campmeeting, were stereopticon slides of Seventh-day
Adventist institutions. They depicted the Melbourne Helping Hand Mission, the Sanitarium at
Summer Hill, NSW, the Adelaide Rescue Home for Women, the Napier New Zealand Bethany
Home for Women, the Orphanage, the Old People's Home. By  1899, Seventh-day Adventists,
because of the ministry known as Christian Help Work, were known throughout Australia and
New Zealand and had more than doubled their membership between the beginnings of that
ministry in 1894 and 1900.30
The Christian Help Work idea was introduced by John Harvey Kellogg at the  1893
28  W C White to Ellen G White, Feb 25,  1895, WCW Bk 7, p 201.
29  W C White to G T Wilson, May 7,  1895, WCW Bk 7, p 289-90, emphasis supplied.
30
From  1,146 in 1894 to 2,375 by 1900.
-12-General Conference Session when he presented a series of six studies on "Missions and
Missionary Work." Besides pervading the United States, it was soon introduced into Australia by
those studying under Kellogg at Battle Creek. It, however, assumed a different perspective within
Australasia. It demanded that its practitioners care not only for the physical health of the
individuals, but also that the "medical missionary" incorporate the skills of Bible ministry. A W
Semmens and Merritt G Kellogg were early examples of this combined ministry within
Australasia.
As early as January 1894, the Bible Echo in Australia reported the success of Christian
Help Work in the United States. Reported G C Tenney:
Another line of work that is being taken up by our people at the present time, and upon
which the blessing of God rests in a remarkable way, is the Christian Help Work, in
which organised bands of workers go about through communities seeking cases of
destitution or distress, and bringing relief in such ways as it is possible. This line of work
is in direct harmony with the Scriptures for our days. Isa 58; Matt 25:31-45, etc. An
opening for this kind of work appeared in Chicago, where an established mission passed
into the hands of the managers of the Sanitarium, and this is made the centre of practical
Christian work for the poor, unfortunate, and sinful of that great city. We are glad to see
the interest in this. At the last session of the General Conference, the Medical Missionary
and Benevolent Association was formed, and under the auspices of this society it is
designed to carry forward this work by means of auxiliary societies in churches
throughout the denomination.31
Indeed, the first meeting of the Australasian Union Conference at Middle Brighton,
Victoria, January 15-25,  1894, already indicated the direction the Christian Help Work would
take in Australia. With General Conference President O A Olsen in attendance and Dr M G
Kellogg giving instruction along medical lines at the Union Conference and G B  Starr instructing
on how to give Bible readings, the Conference saw the potential for such work in Australia and
passed this resolution:
Whereas, Earnest appeals have been made by Sister E G White and others to our brethren
in Battle Creek and other places, who have had special opportunities to gain an
experience in the work of the third angel's message, and many have responded to these
appeals, and have expressed their willingness to go wherever needed, therefore,
Resolved, That we express our gratitude that many are giving heed to these appeals...and
we invite them to give due consideration to the following suggestions:...
Everywhere there is need for those who can care for persons in sickness, poverty, and
distress; hence, a training in nursing, "Christian Help Work," and Bible work, will be of
31  G C Tenney, "From the United States," Bible Echo, Jan 29,  1894, p 28.
-13-inestimable value.32
By August 1894, Christian Help Work was firmly embraced within the suburbs of
Melbourne. At the Prahan meeting August 11  and  12 the Christian Help Work as well as plans
for the soon-to-be-established Bible School (later to become Avondale College) were considered.
"The nature of the Christian Help work, its practical workings, and its needs were presented by
Brn Daniells, Semmens, Faulkhead, and White."33
Near the end of 1894, Anna Ingels, Australian Tract Society leader, described the
beginning of the Christian Help Work in Australia:

Some five months ago the Christian Help work was started under the leadership of
Brother Semmens. Seven bands were organized. The locality around the Echo office for
some distance was divided into districts, with one band to each. Each district had two
lady visitors, whose duty it was to make investigation and determine what help should be
given to the destitute cases reported. Through this means many of the poor and needy
have had their wants relieved and the gospel preached unto them. During the past six
months there has been a greater interest manifested in this church in the missionary
meetings than for years past, and the attendance has been increased fourfold. Bible
readings, gospel conversations, and the circulation of literature are the leading lines of
work. The Prahan society has been largely made up of the students of the Australasian
Bible School. As the students have visited from house to house with the Bible Echo and
with tracts, many souls have expressed their gratitude for these visits and publications,
and gladly opened their homes to Bible readings. The Christian Help work was organized
here also, and while it enabled the members to meet in some degree the temporal
requirements of many families, it also opened the way to point sin-sick souls to the
Saviour

34
It seems apparent that ministry defined as Christian Help Work involved training the
laymembers of the local churches in both visiting, reporting physical needs within the families of
the community, and in providing Biblical training to assist families along spiritual lines. While
those from the local churches were lay volunteers, those who trained them were supported
financially by the Australasia Union. Both Anna Ingels and A W Semmens were so supported.
Semmens would later be ordained to the combined ministry of Christian Help Work and Bible
worker.
In his series of sermons on the third angel's message at the General Conference Session
of February 1895, A T Jones linked to Isaiah 58, as did Ellen White, in a major scriptural
32  Proceedings of the Australasian Union Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, Jan  15-
25,  1894, Bible Echo, Feb 26,  1894, pp 62-63.
33  Bible Echo, Aug 20,  1894, p  164.
34  Anna L Ingels, "The Australian Tract Society," RH, Dec 4,  1894, pp 763-64.
-14-rationale for the Christian Help Work that was then becoming as the major evangelistic thrust of
the Church. At the session, he several times quoted the following from Ellen White:

Search heaven and earth, and there is no truth revealed more powerful than that which is
manifested in mercy to the very ones who need your sympathy and aid in breaking the
yoke, and setting free the oppressed. Here the truth is lived, the truth is obeyed, the truth
is taught, as it is in Jesus.

35
By the  1897 General Conference Session, delegates were reporting how the Christian
Help Work resulted in doubling their local church membership. Mrs S M I Henry, former
evangelist of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, soon to head the "Women's Gospel
Work" for Seventh-day Adventists, was asked to give an outline of her experience in Christian
Help Work as a member of the WCTU.36
Also by 1897, the Australasian Bible Echo in its column entitled "Bible Study" was
applying the typical Bible Reading plan of asking short questions and providing the scriptural
rationale for answering the question, and doing so giving the scriptural basis for Christian Help
Work. Such texts as Isaiah 58, James  1:27, Matthew 25:40 figured prominently in the analysis.
Also in  1897 the Bible Echo established a regular column entitled "Christian Help Work," and
also emphasized Isaiah 58 within its scriptural rationale.37
By the end of 1897 it had become apparent that the primary focus of the work in
Australasia in its evangelistic outreach was the Christian Help Work as defined and applied
within that division. In its tenth annual session, the Australian Tract Society reported the
following:

There seems to have been a growing desire on the part of our churches to conform more
nearly to our Saviour's method of work as revealed in His earthly life. Those engaging
most largely in Christian Help work have been richly blessed in an increasing spirituality
and brotherly love, and the work has resulted in removing prejudice and winning souls to
Christ.... Whereas, We believe that Christian Help work is the Lord's way of bringing the
suffering and lost to a knowledge of the gospel, and all who engage in this work are
greatly blessed:  and Whereas, Experienced labourers have been sent to our field to
engage in this and kindred enterprises; therefore Resolved, That we give special
attention to this method of bringing the blessed gospel of physical, mental, and moral
salvation to the needy....[/quuote]A G Daniells, President; A L Ingels, Secretary.38
35  A T Jones, "Third Angel's Message No.  16," General Conference Bulletin, Feb 24,
1895, p 309.
36  General Conference Bulletin,  1st quarter,  1897, pp 63-64.
37  Bible Echo, June 28,  1897, pp 204-05; Dec  13,  1897, p 390.
38  "Australian Tract Society," Union Conference Record, Jan-Feb  1898, p  14.
-15-In 1897, W C White spent almost nine months in North America and published a number
of "observations" in the Review that gave his perception of the progress of the work in that area.
Certain of his observations make it apparent how pervasive the Christian Help Work was in
North America and the importance he attached to it as it was being practiced in Australasia. In
one of his reports, he bemoaned conditions at South Lancaster Academy, forerunner of Atlantic
Union College, because of "the entire absence of any special instruction to fit students to care for
the sick in connection with Christian Help work." White continued:
There is a great work to be done in our New England cities. The poor, the maimed, the
halt, and the blind of every nationality, are to be ministered to, and are to have an
invitation to the great supper....Christ healed the sick, comforted the discouraged, lifted
up the fallen, taught the ignorant, and preached the good news of the kingdom of
God....As an education and training for Bible work is necessary, so also is a thorough
education and training required that the worker may intelligently minister to the poor and
the sick. And as, from this time forward, ministering to the physical and spiritual needs of
the poor is to be carried forward by us hand in hand, is it not of the utmost importance
that the education in both these branches go forward unitedly and with equal attention?
I hope that the time has come when, in every one of our colleges and schools, as faithful
attention will be given to the thorough instruction of students in nursing and Christian
Help work as in Bible work. It is necessary sometimes to bring in an experienced minister
to stand at the head of the Bible work; let us take as much pains to secure able and
consecrated Christian physicians to perfect the work begun by teachers who are also
trained nurses....Now is our time to work in the large cities; and the work is so great, and
the laborers are so few, that we should at once take advantage of any measure that will
economize time, money, or influence.39
Medical Doctor, E R Caro, became a major figure in fostering the medical missionary
work in Australia. He summarized the work in Australasia as of early 1898:

A corps of thirteen medical workers, consisting of two physicians, ten nurses, and a
trained baker, are now at work in the Australasian colonies. Small companies have been
located in Sydney, Melbourne, and Perth, and in Christchurch, New Zealand. In addition
to the above, nurses are being trained in connection with the Health Home in Sydney, and
a special course in nursing, cooking, and hygiene, is being given by medical and scientific
instructors at our school in Cooranbong. As fast as workers can be trained, they will be
sent to churches in the different localities, to instruct those who are anxious to learn. The
Spirit speaks expressly concerning the importance of training young men and women to
become medical missionaries....
Opportunities are presenting themselves for engaging in work among the poor and the
39  W C White, "Observations-No. 2," RH, Jan 4,  1898, pp  11-12. Within six months,
Southern Lancaster Academy informed the Review readers that its instruction now included a full
year study in Christian Help Work and giving Bible readings. RH, June  14,  1898, p 383.
-16-needy. A home for released female prisoners has been established in New Zealand, and
several orphans are being cared for in private homes in Melbourne and elsewhere. In
addition, hundreds of visits have been made, and hundreds of treatments have been given
to those who could not afford to pay for medical attention. As our earning institutions
obtain the means to purchase better facilities for treating the sick, the increased income
will enable us to use more workers, and to spend more money in assisting the unfortunate
and the destitute....
None can doubt the necessity of putting forth more earnest efforts for the outcasts, the
widows, and the fatherless....No opportunity of doing good to suffering humanity should
be overlooked. Why not open our hearts and our homes to the needy, to the widow, to the
orphans, and to the aged?...Christian Help Work can be undertaken by all, for the Lord
has promised to help those who attend to the wants of the needy.

[Quoting Ellen White in RH,  1896] 

"The angels look upon the distressed members of
God's family on the earth, and they are prepared to co-operate with the human agent in
relieving oppression and suffering. When heavenly intelligences see those who claim to
be sons and daughters of God, putting forth Christ-like efforts to help the erring, and
manifesting a tender spirit toward the fallen, they press close to them, and bring to their
remembrance the words that will soothe and uplift the soul."

40
In July 1898, A T Robinson wrote of the ongoing Christian Help Work in Australasia:
It was my intention to have written concerning the work of the home for the aged, the
Helping Hand Wood Yard, the Laundry, which is to be opened soon, the work of caring
for the orphans, the establishing of the electric Light Bath Institution, etc; but I fear I  have
already taken up too much space [in writing of the Helping Hand Mission of Melbourne],
so will conclude by saying that we expect, in a few days, to publish the first number of a
little paper called the "Helping Hand," the mission of which will be to report fully each
month on the various lines of Christian Help work carried forward.41
The New South Wales Conference, meeting July 21-26,  1898, considered that "The Spirit
of God is signally blessing the Christian Help Work in all parts of the harvest field," and
recommended that every church within that conference engage in the Christian Help Work.
During that session, delegates accepted the recommendations of the Committee on Credentials
and Licenses (W C White, F L Sharp, G F Goodman) to grant ministerial licenses to Christian
40  Dr E R Caro, "The Right Arm of the Message," Union Conference Record, April  1898,
pp 54-55.
41  A T Robinson, "Christian Help Work in Melbourne," Union Conference Record, July
15,  1898, p 81.
-17-Help workers A W Semmens and Dr E R Caro.42
In September 1898 the Bible Echo devoted its entire eight-page issue to what it called its
"Helping Hand Mission number." Articles described and pictured the Helping Hand and medical
mission building in Melbourne; it discussed the opening ceremonies on September 12,  1898, and
even described the details during the first night at the Mission. Within a month of its opening, the
Melbourne Helping Hand Mission evangelist W Knight reported conversions from the evening
gospel meetings. By November the Melbourne Helping Hand Mission was reporting major
newspaper recognition throughout Victoria and a strong ranking among the benevolent
institutions of Melbourne.43
In early 1899, Ellen White again strongly endorsed the ministerial thrust Seventh-day
Adventists fostered in Australasia:
It was thought that the time had fully come for us to make a decided effort to present the
truth to the eighty thousand people of Newcastle and its surrounding towns; and we knew
that the best possible way to do this was by holding a camp-meeting, following it with
tent-meetings, accompanied by visiting, Bible work, the selling of the Bible Echo and
religious and health books, and by Christian Help work and the establishment of a
medical mission. Repeatedly during the last five years, it has been presented to me that a
great work is to be done in the cities of Australasia, that the present is a favourable time
to work, and that no time should be lost; and recently light has come to me, encouraging
us to put forth greater efforts in Sydney, Melbourne, and Brisbane, and indicating that the
time has come for us to enter Newcastle and its surrounding towns.44
April  18,  1898, marked the formation of the Australasian Medical Missionary and
Benevolent Association that functioned to "give general oversight to all lines of medical,
missionary, and Christian Help work." Among those on the managing committee for the medical
missionary work was Licensed Minister, Mrs Margaret Caro. At its April 27,  1899 meeting
Association President A G Daniells, presented a string of Ellen White statements that provided
the spiritual and practical rationale for the work of that Medical Missionary Association:
"Much of the prejudice that prevents the truth of the Third Angel's Message from
reaching the hearts of the people might be removed if more attention was given to health
reform. When people become interested in this subject, the way is often prepared for the
entrance of other truths."
42  W L H Baker, Miss L Gregg, "New South Wales Conference," Union Conference
Record, Aug 15,  1898, pp 89-90.
43  Bible Echo, Sept 26,  1898;  "The Melbourne Helping Hand Mission," Union
Conference Record, Oct 15,  1898, p  106; The Secretary, Melbourne Helping Hand Mission, "The
Helping Hand Mission," Bible Echo, Nov 28,  1898.
44  Ellen White, "The Newcastle Camp-Meeting," RH, April  11,  1899, p 225.

[Johann]

April  18,  1898, marked the formation of the Australasian Medical Missionary and
Benevolent Association that functioned to "give general oversight to all lines of medical,
missionary, and Christian Help work." Among those on the managing committee for the medical
missionary work was Licensed Minister, Mrs Margaret Caro. At its April 27,  1899 meeting
Association President A G Daniells, presented a string of Ellen White statements that provided
the spiritual and practical rationale for the work of that Medical Missionary Association:

"Much of the prejudice that prevents the truth of the Third Angel's Message from
reaching the hearts of the people might be removed if more attention was given to health
reform. When people become interested in this subject, the way is often prepared for the
entrance of other truths."

42  W L H Baker, Miss L Gregg, "New South Wales Conference," Union Conference
Record, Aug 15,  1898, pp 89-90.
43  Bible Echo, Sept 26,  1898;  "The Melbourne Helping Hand Mission," Union
Conference Record, Oct 15,  1898, p  106; The Secretary, Melbourne Helping Hand Mission, "The
Helping Hand Mission," Bible Echo, Nov 28,  1898.
44  Ellen White, "The Newcastle Camp-Meeting," RH, April  11,  1899, p 225.
-18-

[Johann]

About 50 years ago we had about 4,000 SDA church members in Denmark. In recent years the number has been around 2,000.

A couple of years ago a couple of old friends from Denmark visited us here in Iceland, both of whom are serving as pastors in Denmark. Since then she has been following the divine pattern as described here in the churh where she has the responsibility. Now the weekly attendance is the double of what it was before, and last Sabbath they had their first baptism as a result. Following the divine pattern can never be wrong, no matter how many quotations you are able to dig up to discourage the church from following it.

[Gregory]

http://www.atoday.org/article/1341/news/august-headlines/editorial-is-the-women-s-ordination-issue-about-unity-or-uniformity

The above consists of an comment on ordination and the role of women by David Newman a former Ministry Editor.  It addresses many of the points posted here.

For those interested in SDA History, the above has attached a document that pertains to he September 1973 meeting in Mohaven OH relating to ordination and the role of women in the SDA church.  It is of interest to see where the denomination was at that time.

[Gregory]

St. Murphy’s Rule of Researching Religiously:  “Read enough theological books and you will find someone who supports your beliefs.  Corollary. have enough Bible translations in your library and you will find one that agrees with what you think a particular passage says.”  Ron Birk.  In Paul Dickson THE OFFICIAL RULES OF LIFE, 2000, PAGE 90.

I can not help but smile.        

[Bob Pickle]

Johann,

Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.

But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.

Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.

That is not the question. Does it matter who's wife the woman is? The whole point is that Ellen White made it clear that these women are to be ordained, even if they are only working part time in evangelism. You have yourself stated several times that evangelism is the criteria, and not pastoring a large church. Here you have what you have been asking for. Ellen White laid out the divine plan for the gospel commission for that time. In all of your picking of articles you have demonstrated how many of these men refused to follow the divine plan to prove that they did not like female pastors. Your arguments are working against what you are trying to say.

Ellen White made out the blueprint about 130 years ago. Ordaining even part time women, so why not full time working women? You have been demonstrating how reluctant these men were at that time. With their reluctance they have kept back the work of God for more than a 100 years. Are you trying to praise them for their disobedience and rebellion? And are you praising people for remaining disobedient to the divine vision even today?

We should have been in Heaven by now - you know that. How do we ever get there as long as those pious looking people are holding back the force God had appointed already 130 years ago? Read it for yourself with your eyes open.

Johann,

Then is the problem that different people mean different things by "ordain"? And that currently we do not have different types of ordination for different types of ministry, other than minister, elder, deacon, and deaconess?

I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.

[Bob Pickle]

http://www.atoday.org/article/1341/news/august-headlines/editorial-is-the-women-s-ordination-issue-about-unity-or-uniformity

The above consists of an comment on ordination and the role of women by David Newman a former Ministry Editor.  It addresses many of the points posted here.

For those interested in SDA History, the above has attached a document that pertains to he September 1973 meeting in Mohaven OH relating to ordination and the role of women in the SDA church.  It is of interest to see where the denomination was at that time.

Gregory,

Is Newman advocating that unions and conference support the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes, or is he advocating that they instead rebel?

It's a simple question, and I think that before we go and read his material, we should know up front which side of the question he is on. After all, if the angels had known up front whether or not Lucifer was fomenting rebellion, everything might have turned out quite differently.

I'm not saying which side Newman is on. I'm asking which side Newman is on. And I'm not asking whether he is pro-WO or anti-WO. I'm asking whether he is pro-rebellion or anti-rebellion.

[Gregory]

Is Newman advocating that unions and conference support the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes, or is he advocating that they instead rebel?

 Bob, I have gone to the document and I have read it again.  I do not believe that he addresses your question in that document.  So, I cannot respond directly to your question.

That document is of major value in my thinking in that it gives some historical information about how this question has been addressed in the past.

[Johann]

Johann,

Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.

But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.

Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.

That is not the question. Does it matter who's wife the woman is? The whole point is that Ellen White made it clear that these women are to be ordained, even if they are only working part time in evangelism. You have yourself stated several times that evangelism is the criteria, and not pastoring a large church. Here you have what you have been asking for. Ellen White laid out the divine plan for the gospel commission for that time. In all of your picking of articles you have demonstrated how many of these men refused to follow the divine plan to prove that they did not like female pastors. Your arguments are working against what you are trying to say.

Ellen White made out the blueprint about 130 years ago. Ordaining even part time women, so why not full time working women? You have been demonstrating how reluctant these men were at that time. With their reluctance they have kept back the work of God for more than a 100 years. Are you trying to praise them for their disobedience and rebellion? And are you praising people for remaining disobedient to the divine vision even today?

We should have been in Heaven by now - you know that. How do we ever get there as long as those pious looking people are holding back the force God had appointed already 130 years ago? Read it for yourself with your eyes open.

Johann,

Then is the problem that different people mean different things by "ordain"? And that currently we do not have different types of ordination for different types of ministry, other than minister, elder, deacon, and deaconess?

Why isn't that sufficient?

I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.

For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities,  Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd  have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.

[Robert]

It is dangerous to rely on what some one, some leader, or what some organization says.  The GC has been wrong before and will probably be wrong again...after all they are just human beings too.  We do need an organization but we need to study and read for ourselves.  We can't blame the organization when we stand before God!  We also need to question ourselves whether what I believe is right.  It took me several years to believe what SDA's teach.  Much of my proof came out of the Catholic Encyclopedia because of my preconceived ideas...and found the SDA organization was quite similar.  I can at this time, only believe the GC is wrong.

[Bob Pickle]

Why isn't that sufficient?

Because the ordination that confers authority to baptize and organize churches is not the same as the ordination that Ellen White called for in 1895. But I think you already must realize that.

I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.

For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities,  Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd  have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.

Then you have a problem, because what you then are advocating is the abolition of gospel order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Within Adventism we have never said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone, with or without ordination as a SS Supt. Never.