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[Artiste]

Spectrum reported today that "it has received many unconfirmed reports from around the North American Division that in a Thursday teleconference with union officials, Wilson plans to discuss potential sanctions against unions viewed as being out of compliance with the General Conference Working Policy.

Ricardo Graham, President of the Pacific Union Conference, has given out a message that includes the following:

In the June and July issues of the Pacific Union Recorder, we reported that the Pacific Union Executive Committee has voted to authorize the ordination of pastors without regard to gender, and that a special constituency meeting will convene on Aug. 19 to amend the union bylaws to clearly permit this.

Will this, along with the nearly 7,000 signatures in the Christ or Culture petition against WO, prevent the union from amending their bylaws on August 17?

(Ricardo Graham's photo below, as it appears on the Pacific Union Conference website.) 

[Artiste]

Atoday, in reporting the latest GC call for unity, also states that there was a vote for WO in 1881.

The GC Session of 1881 voted a resolution permitting the ordination of women, but it was never implemented for reasons that remain unclear.

This is attributed to the AT News Team.

[Dedication]

This was reported in the July 5, 1985 Review and Herald, page 6
They too reported on the 1881 resolution:

ADVENTIST SCRAPBOOK

Sponsored by The Heritage Room
Loma Linda University Libraries

GC session actions
affecting women

Important decisions regarding the role of women in the
church occurred at the following General Conference
sessions:

1871—Adelia Van Horn became treasurer of the General
Conference—the first woman to serve as a General
Conference officer.

1875—Fredricka House was elected treasurer of the
General Conference.

1877—Minerva J. Chapman became the third and most
recent woman to be selected for the post of General
Conference treasurer.

1878—Sister Aurner attended as a delegate from the
Dakota Conference, the first woman delegate to a
General Conference session.

1879—Anna K. Rasmussen was asked to go to Norway to
assist Elder John G. Matteson in the publication of
a missionary paper, thus becoming the first woman
Adventist missionary authorized by name to go
overseas in an action of a General Conference
session.

1881—The session passed a resolution stating "that
females possessing the necessary qualifications to
fill that position may, with perfect propriety, be
set apart by ordination to the work of the Christian
ministry."

1913—L. Flora Plummer was elected secretary of the
Sabbath school department. She had been corre-
sponding secretary of the same department since
1901.

1975—M. Carol Hetzell became director of the Commu-
nication Department. Delegates approved a rec-
ommendation honoring Adventist women and
giving them recognition for their contributions to
the church. The same session advocated "broader
participation in church leadership" for women.

Even in that list we see that around 1915 the male domination took over, and no more women appeared till the 1970's.  It seemed to have set in just after Ellen White's death.  Interesting!

[Dedication]

The only approbriate sanction, as I see it,  would be to make it plain that women ordained by the Columbia Union would not be recognized as ordained pastors by the world wide church, it would be valid ONLY in their Union.
Whereas the world church in it's General Conference Session voted NOT to ordain women, there is no way the World Church can recognize the women as duly ordained.


Any "sanctions"  beyond that would be the General Conference forcing DISUNITY after urging for unity.

[Artiste]

The only approbriate sanction, as I see it,  would be to make it plain that women ordained by the Columbia Union would not be recognized as ordained pastors by the world wide church, it would be valid ONLY in their Union.
Whereas the world church in it's General Conference Session voted NOT to ordain women, there is no way the World Church can recognize the women as duly ordained.


Any "sanctions"  beyond that would be the General Conference forcing DISUNITY after urging for unity.

I see that your attitude toward the GC is not that great, Ulicia.

[Dedication]

Why would you say that?

[Artiste]

The only approbriate sanction, as I see it,  would be to make it plain that women ordained by the Columbia Union would not be recognized as ordained pastors by the world wide church, it would be valid ONLY in their Union.
Whereas the world church in it's General Conference Session voted NOT to ordain women, there is no way the World Church can recognize the women as duly ordained.

Any "sanctions"  beyond that would be the General Conference forcing DISUNITY after urging for unity.

It appears that you have decided the only sanction that would be appropriate.

Beyond that, you would accuse the GC of causing disunity in the church.

I get the feeling from what has come out in the church news that your solution for a sanction might not be the one that the GC was thinking of.

[Bob Pickle]

This was reported in the July 5, 1985 Review and Herald, page 6
They too reported on the 1881 resolution:

I have a hard time understanding why so many people misread the GC Session minutes. Perhaps everyone just copied what someone else said without ever looking it up for themselves.

Even in that list we see that around 1915 the male domination took over, and no more women appeared till the 1970's.  It seemed to have set in just after Ellen White's death.  Interesting!

Some historical piece on camp meetings somewhere notes that soon after Ellen White's death camp meetings started being held in the same place year after year, since that was more convenient. That's how I remember the piece. Trouble is that that was exactly what Ellen White said not to do since camp meetings were to be evangelistic, not just a place for Adventists to go to be fed.

[Bob Pickle]

The only approbriate sanction, as I see it,  would be to make it plain that women ordained by the Columbia Union would not be recognized as ordained pastors by the world wide church, it would be valid ONLY in their Union.
Whereas the world church in it's General Conference Session voted NOT to ordain women, there is no way the World Church can recognize the women as duly ordained.


Any "sanctions"  beyond that would be the General Conference forcing DISUNITY after urging for unity.

Many families operate that way. Children blatantly rebel against parental authority, and then parents don't do a thing or don't do much because they don't want to create a fuss or cross the little monsters' wills.

That's what Eli did, and the mess got bigger and bigger and bigger, causing the whole nation to drift from God and into iniquity. Still, Eli neglected to restrain his vile sons, or sentence them appropriately in his capacity of civil ruler. The day came when a messenger arrived from the battle and informed him that his sons were dead, which he wasn't surprised at since he was expecting it.

If the Columbia Union won't come into line, won't cease its rebellion, then the GC should dissolve it. Otherwise, why even have a GC? Why did Hophni and Phineas need a father anyway if Eli wasn't going to do his job? If the world church can express its will in a GC Session, and if official policy says that a GC Session is the highest authority on earth under God, and if one of the GC's "children" can rebel against a GC Session with impunity, what is the purpose for even having a world church?

Are the unions the "children" of the GC? Yes. Just as conferences are the entity that recognize local churches, the GC is the entity that recognizes unions.

[Dedication]

I'm sorry if I sound disagreeable or against anyone, that's not the purpose.
 
In perspective of all the issues facing the church, this issue to me seems minor.   

Though I'm slowly beginning to see why there is this sharp disagreement.
It may have a lot to do in how people think of ordination.

1. Some see ordination as recognition to minister, to be set apart to be a leader in witnessing and pomoting the gospel, to be set apart to evangelize, and have the stamp of being  recognized as a Seventh-day Adventist spiritual leader qualified to teach and preach  within the Seventh-day Adventist Church.   Basically they are ordained to be a pastor (shepherd bringing the sheep and lambs to Christ)


2. Others see ordination as a license to be administrators of the church, they don't seem to see it as being about witnessing and evangelizing, but it appears from their arguments that ordination  is about being  an administrator of the church.

I see ordination as being definition #1
It is a dedication to a sacred work of being a leader in witnessing for Christ.
An ordained person is set apart and recognized as a qualified teacher and preacher and evangelist for the church.   


Well some say, women can already teach and even preach.
But let me liken it to school teacher and  teaching certification.
First a new teacher gets a "lesser" certificate that allows him or her to teach, but even though one can then teach and do pretty much everything certified teachers do, everyone knows it isn't full recognition.
It's when the official certification is granted that one is a fully recognized teacher.

Ordination means a person is recognized as an authentic Seventh-day Adventist with authority to preach, teach, evangelize etc. etc.  and why shouldn't they be allowed to baptize?   (All baptisms have to be OK'd by the board in the churches I've been in) And if a woman witnesses to many people in a "dark community" and forms a congregation -- what's wrong with that?  We should be praising the Lord for everyone who goes out and forms new congregations.
Besides the conference still has the final word on recognizing newly formed congregations.   

Ellen White was all for women being ordained to minister, to evangelize, to witness, to be a PASTOR.

"Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands.RH, July 9, 1895
 "There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women.5MR 325
 The experience thus gained (in canvassing) will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."--6T 322

Now of course if "ordination" means basically an upgrade to admistration level, that's a whole different picture.  Is that what being ordained is all about?  To be an administrator?

If that's the whole problem all the church has to do is have a separate ordination service for administrators.
Just like there is an ordination for deacons  (that doesn't make them elders)  There is another ordination for elders (That doesn't make the Pastors)  There is another ordination for Pastors as they are set apart for ministry. Why should that make them administrators?    Why not set apart the admistrators for admistrative duties by their own ordination, and leave the ordination of ministers for those set apart to minister. 
 

[Bob Pickle]

Ulicia,

I see ordination of gospel ministers, based on Ellen White's statement regarding the ordination service of Saul and Barnabas, as being an authorization to organize churches and baptize. That seems to be a combination of both your points. It is for evangelism, and it is for administration of a sorts.

I think you are right that many of the WO crowd see ordination as being recognition. But it is true that our church policies even today still portray ordination as granting authorization to organize churches, and ordain elders and deacons.

Your teacher's certification illustration is good. However, consider this: Licensed ministers are like the teachers just starting out. Women start out that way in North America, and when it comes time to recognize them like a fully certified teacher might be, they become a commissioned minister. The recognition is there. It's just different than what male ministers receive. I'm not saying I agree with this, but this is what happens in North America.

But that form of recognition isn't good enough for the WO crowd. They want something more. They want women to be able to organize churches (even though that is seldom done these days), ordain elders and deacons, and be able to be conference and mission presidents. Perhaps we can add, be able to baptize and marry outside of their district without having to first get permission.

Ellen White was all for women being ordained to minister, to evangelize, to witness, to be a PASTOR.

"Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands.RH, July 9, 1895
 "There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women.5MR 325
 The experience thus gained (in canvassing) will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."--6T 322

In light of Ellen White's 1901 and 1902 statements quoted in Evangelism, I do not see any way that we can interpret these statements to mean that she thought women should serve as local pastors of local churches.

By the way, Elder Littlejohn, one of the members of the 3-man committee that produced the 1881 WO resolution, wrote in 1883 that the local church elders are the ones who serve as pastors of the local church (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18830626-V60-26__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=9). Why else do we have elders and head elders?

[Artiste]

A few days ago, David Read at Advindicate in a discussion of Deborah and Barak said, "Perhaps Barak symbolizes today's feminized church leadership: the Dave Weigleys and Ricardo Grahams of the church".

I thought that was an interesting observation.

[Dedication]

But that form of recognition isn't good enough for the WO crowd. They want something more. They want women to be able to organize churches (even though that is seldom done these days), ordain elders and deacons, and be able to be conference and mission presidents

It was mentioned today (not on this forum that I know) that the ruling that only ordained ministers could be chosen for the higher administrative offices in the conferences/unions/general conference was only adopted about 15 years ago. (Oct. 1994?)

So before that, ordination, though usually present, was not a stated requirement to high administration positions in the church?

BUT now -- what about the fact that there IS a woman with the position as General Conference Vice President?
 Ella Simmons, Seventh-day Adventist General Conference vice president, the first and only woman to be part of the circle of the worldwide presidency's board of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Is she an ordained minister?

Or is it only the president who shall be an ordained minister of experience, being the first officer of the church?

[Gregory]

ES holds a high position in the General Conference. She is a Vice President.

As a Vice president, the requirement for a President to be a male does not apply to her.  IOW,  she can be a GC Vice President, but she cannot be a local conference president.  Interesting.

No, she is not an ordained minister.  I believe that she is a Commissioned Minister.

Ulicia, the ruling is that women can not be Presidents.  They may hold other offices, as demonstrated by ES.

[Dedication]

The more I look into this the more inconsistancies I see.