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[Murcielago]

I heard the same today from a Conf sec from south America. No evidence to disprove WO, but no-votes keeping it on the back burner until a consensus can be reached to allow it in the fields that vote for it. I was told that the no votes from the areas this person represents were based on ancient cultural stigmas on women from the native religions of that area, and traditional stigmas from their 500 year old Catholic background.

[Bob Pickle]

There was absolutely NOTHING in the president's speech to indicate that he was against ordaining women, or that the Columbia Union's motion was going against God or against scripture.   None of those issues were mentioned by the president as reasons for them to reconsider their aim and purpose for the constituency meeting.

The reason for his appeal was based solely on the fact that according to church policies, and GC votes that determined those policies current,  they had no legal right to make such a motion.  Their motion was "out of order" according to the church's constitutional policies.  His appeal was to wait and allow "due process" to move forward.

I don't think we should read too much into that.

Our local church passed a statement which said pretty much the same, in March or April, in time to get on the conference constituency agenda. There are pro-WO folks who are anti-move-forward-now because they view the present agitation as rebellion. Our statement was something that pro-WO folks of this type and anti-WO folks could agree upon because we left out arguments against WO.

But we did point out the necessity of establishing from inspiration that WO is permissible, and gave that necessity as a reason to wait. The study commission process is something that should be able to produce biblical arguments in favor of WO if such is possible.

[Daryl Fawcett]

It is the rebellion aspect of these Unions that bother me more than anything else.

[Johann]

It is the rebellion aspect of these Unions that bother me more than anything else.

It's been a few years now since I was 9 years old and attended church school. A few weeks into my third grade I had to stay in bed a few days with fever and some kind of a bug, but my mind was clear, I loved arithmetic, so I spent most of  my time in bed figuring out how to solve most of the problems found in the textbook, and I wrote down the solutions. This way I got far ahead of my classmates, and somehow it stayed  that way in most subjects through all the grades. It happened because I broke the "rules" and did more homework than prescribed. My teacher was understanding and during my final year in grade school he provided me with a textbook for math in high school. This made it possible for me to skip three years of school, and thereby I broke the rules for public education, because I stayed out of school for a whole years when the rules required my school attendance. Then a school principal permitted me to attend classes together with the 10th grade whenever I could find a ride the 10 miles to school, which was usually two or three days a week. I was the youngest kid in class, and here I had to compete with two brilliant sisters who managed to get ahead of me in grades. It saddens me that one of these suffers from Alzheimer's today.

Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Yes, I might have enjoyed several more years in school and learned some things I still haven't learned if I had followed the rules. Is that the reason some people feel that the three unions should not be permitted to advance where they feel the Lord is leading?

[Bob Pickle]

Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Johann,

The Zwickau prophets spoke in similar terms. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? They can't just assert that without some sort of evidence, and use that mere assertion to undermine gospel order in the church, order which the Holy Spirit really did lead in establishing.

So where is the evidence?

[Johann]

Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Johann,

The Zwickau prophets spoke in similar terms. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? They can't just assert that without some sort of evidence, and use that mere assertion to undermine gospel order in the church, order which the Holy Spirit really did lead in establishing.

So where is the evidence?

Is there no "Gospel Orders" in Gospel Workers or elsewhere?

[Bob Pickle]

Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Johann,

The Zwickau prophets spoke in similar terms. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? They can't just assert that without some sort of evidence, and use that mere assertion to undermine gospel order in the church, order which the Holy Spirit really did lead in establishing.

So where is the evidence?

Is there no "Gospel Orders" in Gospel Workers or elsewhere?

I don't see how you answered my question. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? How do we know that their supposed inspiration is any sounder than that of the Zwickau prophets? What is their evidence?

Jim Gilley told me that God had told him "in seasons of the night" not to look into the past when he took the position of president at 3ABN. It's a manipulation tactic to say, "God told me, so you better back off and not meddle." Gilley provided me with not one shred of evidence that God had given him a dream or vision telling him not to deal with Danny's cover up Tommy's pedophilia, Danny's unbiblical divorce, Nick Miller's ouster, Danny's private inurement, Danny's perjury, etc. And personally, I don't think he had any such vision or dream.

So where is the evidence, Johann?

[Battle Creek]

The Value of the Church Policy

Recently I was talking to the treasurer of a union which is in good and regular standing after these upheavals. He was telling me that his union was about $8,000,000 in debt right now, and he had no idea where to get the money from.

We talked about members from other fields sending their tithes to this union. He said it was against policy for him to ask people to do that, because  the policy states that all church members are to pay their tithes to the field where they have their membership, and it is also expected that the membership is in your local church.

But on the other hand there are many Adventists who send their tithes to struggling fields they know need the funds more than their own conference. This does not mean they are opposed to their own leaders, just that they know the financial needs are much greater elsewhere.

The General Conference knows that these things are taking place, so why are they not stopping this "rebellion" against the existing policies?

That is because the General Conference realizes that policies are meant as guidelines, and not as an unchangeable law of operations.

[Bob Pickle]

Could you quote the specific policies you are referring to? Thanks.

[Daryl Fawcett]

I would also be interested in a quote of those specific policies.

[Battle Creek]

No specific part of a policy book was mentioned. Just a general principle.

I know of an instance where local mission presidents asked a pastor to write an article about certain needs in his historic church. As a result a private donor sent funds from another country to cover the expenses needed to repair the church. Somehow the policy conscious division president discovered the transfer of these funds. At the next General Conference session this president met the "offending" pastor and let him know he had broken the policy by soliciting unauthorized funds, and if he would ever do that again he would be fired. He added an account of great plans he had for the future in his division.

A few hours later a new division president was elected and the old one was without a job. He told that pastor of his great disappointment. Some claimed it was because he was too strict when enforcing the policies.

[Bob Pickle]

If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, then there really is no way to accuse anyone of rebelling against anything.

[Battle Creek]

If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, then there really is no way to accuse anyone of rebelling against anything.

So? ?

[Bob Pickle]

If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, then there really is no way to accuse anyone of rebelling against anything.

So? ?

Your earlier post had stated:

The Value of the Church Policy

...

The General Conference knows that these things are taking place, so why are they not stopping this "rebellion" against the existing policies?

If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, there is no "rebellion" "against the existing policies" for the GC or anyone else to stop. That is clear.

We need the specific policy that covers the topic in question in order to discuss whether or not there really is rebellion going on.

[Daryl Fawcett]

According to the GC Working Policy, this is how the tithe is to be paid:

V 05 20 Tithe to Local Church — The tithe is to be turned in to the local church in which membership is held. An exception to this policy may be made in regard to the tithe of denominational employees, as determined by the division committee.