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[Bob Pickle]

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.

Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.

I don't think side 1 has valid points.

Ordained by whom? She herself wrote that God ordained her in the city of Portland, which would refer to her call to the prophetic ministry around December 1844 via a vision.

Ordained for what office? Prophet.

If anyone on side 1 wants to use the ordination certificates to support WO, then they really ought to cough up at least one example of Ellen White performing at least one of the functions of an ordained minister of the gospel. Did she ever organize a church? Did she ever baptize?

To all appearances, Ellen White was content in the role God had called her to, and did not seek to assume the roles of those given other gifts of the Spirit.

[Bob Pickle]

Was Ellen White Herself Ordained?

There is no record of Ellen White ever having been ordained by human hands. Yet from 1871 until her death she was granted ministerial credentials by various organizations of the church. The certificate that was used read ?Ordained Minister.? Several other credential certificates from the mid-1880s are still in our possession. On the one from 1885 the word ordained is neatly struck out. On the 1887 certificate, the next one we have, it is not.

Had she been ordained in the interim? Some have argued that she had. But the question is settled definitely by her own hand. In 1909 she filled out a ?Biographical Information Blank? for the General Conference records. On the blank for item 19, which asks, ?If ordained, state when, where, and by whom,? she simply inscribed an X. This is the same response she made to item 26, which asked, ?If remarried, give date, and to whom.? In this way she indicated that she had never remarried, nor had she ever been ordained. She was not denying that God had chosen and equipped her, but she indicated that there had never been an ordination ceremony carried out for her. 29

Why then do some of her credentials say ?ordained minister?? The fact that ?ordained? was sometimes crossed out highlights the awkwardness of giving credentials to a prophet. The church has no such special category of credentials. So it utilized what it had, giving its highest credentials without performing an ordination ceremony. In actuality, the prophet needed no human credentials. She functioned for more than 25 years prior to 1871 without any.

Thus in 1909 Ellen White denied having ever been ordained.

[Johann]

I'd say the ordination certificate of Ellen White in Elmshaven is a 4x6 card, pre-printed "ordained" pastor or minister

There are two such cards available where  the word "ordained" was not crossed out, so we have a two to one evidence the brethren regarded her as ordained. And we have a third where the word "ordained" has been crossed out by pencil.

Before I was ordained I received a card where the word "Ordained" was never on the card.

[SDAminister]

Was Ellen White ordained?

Elle White was given tehe credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She was listed as such in the official records of the denominaiton.  She was never ordained in a public (or private) ceremoney in whichothers laid their hands upon her.

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.


Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.

You are ignoring the part where the term ordained was crossed out on one of the her certificates, and also on a form that she had to fill out she put an "X" in the space where it asked if the person was ordained, thus indicating that she did not consider herself an ordained minister.

Is there some reason you left those facts out?

The card where the word "ordained" is crossed out, is one exhibition at Elmshaven, where I saw it last time I was there. It is remarkable, that while other items on this card is filled in with ink, the word ordained has a very thin line over it, not in ink like the other items, but a very weak pencil. Since nothing is crossed out on the other two copies still available of the card, there is a strong suspicion that that pencil line has been added at a much later date.

EGW has written elsewhere when and where she was ordained by God.

Johann,
I was at Elmshaven just a few months ago. The card on display with "ordained" crossed out is not as you describe it. There is not a "very thin line over it". Rather, each letter in the word "ordained" is crossed out individually with a diagonal stroke.
Perhaps you saw something different than the one on display?

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

The church leadership recognized the Ordination of Ellen G. White "by the Holy Spirit" and and gave her credentials for the pulpit. At no point did she participate in an ordination ceremony as the recipient of the "laying on of hands". Anyone here qualified???

There is a baseless rumor spread by clearly agenda driven subversives that the 1881 General Conference adopted the "Ordination of Women". In fact, the issue was on the agenda and was referred back to the General Conference Executive Committee for study. It was never adopted and in fact never came up again for nearly 83 years in Austria, and was soundly defeated as un-biblical.

There are many well studied treatises on the role of women in the church, including one on Amazing Facts. Un-biblical has still not changed!!!

The point is the Headline is in Fact ACCURATE and puts that Union at odds with the decisions of the General Conference in Session.

This is an outright rebellion against properly constituted church authority and creates a congregational church. If this is not challenged head on as the "Tip of The Iceburg" that it is, then we should absolutely be required to apologize to "Certain Private Organizations" that were the subject of "Issues..." of 1991, including "Hartland Institute, Hope International, Steps to Life (John Grossball), Modern Manna Ministries (Danny Viera) and John Osborne."

And any entity will be free to exercise private opinion and establish a "congregational" church organization with no unity of purpose, no unity of Faith and no unity in the Spirit. In fact, the seventh Christian Church would see it's history simply end and from the fractured ashes would arise the Phoenix of the Remnant to give the Loud Cry message, our institutions having been swept into the tides of history, millions abandoning the church of the "Ten Commandments and the Faith of Jesus"... as we plunge into the dark ages of modern christianity with no organization to fight the adoption of a National Sunday Law and the eventual death decree that will most certainly have to come!!!

And the remnant will cry out "Lo, come Lord Jesus" and the congregational ex-adventists will be "left behind".

These are solemn times and the eschatology of Ellen G. White unfolds before our eyes...cling to the spirit of the  organized church and to the Saviour that is it's husband, lest we "fall away" and be lost. So close, yet so far and "Paradise Lost"!!! Not the ending we really want if we embrace spirit of this  rebellion.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
 

Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.

Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

[Murcielago]

I see...

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

I pray that this is so!!!

[Johann]

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness. {RH July 9, 1895, par. 8}

[Gregory]

Adventist News Network in a program onHope TV has announced to the world the action of the Columbia Union Conference to ordain irregardless of gender.  The announcement was fair and mentioned the Biblical study currently underway.

[Bob Pickle]

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness. {RH July 9, 1895, par. 8}

No one that I know of objects to ordaining women to do what is described above, namely, to do the work of a deaconess.

[Artiste]

Adventist News Network in a program onHope TV has announced to the world the action of the Columbia Union Conference to ordain irregardless of gender.  The announcement was fair and mentioned the Biblical study currently underway.

A quick check of the comments so far under that topic in ANN's website shows a majority of about 65% expressing varying degrees of sadness and dismay over the CUC vote.

[Artiste]

Also the petition on the Christ or Culture site against women's ordination in the Pacific Union Conference has quickly shot up to over 6,000 in the last several days.

Obviously a reaction to the CUC vote?

[Johann]

Also the petition on the Christ or Culture site against women's ordination in the Pacific Union Conference has quickly shot up to over 6,000 in the last several days.

Obviously a reaction to the CUC vote?

Perhaps?

 

[Daryl Fawcett]

This is a very heavy and divisive topic in the SDA Church.

I am still digesting that union's vote myself.

Whew!!!!!

[Snoopy]

This is a very heavy and divisive topic in the SDA Church.

I am still digesting that union's vote myself.

Whew!!!!!

I agree, Daryl.  By the way - good to see you here!!