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[Bob Pickle]

B 15 15—Officers/Administrators to Work in Harmony with Policy—Officers and administrators are expected to work in harmony with the North American Division Working Policy. Those who show inability or unwillingness to administer their work in harmony with policy should not be continued in executive leadership by their respective constituencies or governing boards/committees.

B 15 15—Officers/Administrators to Work in Harmony with Policy—Officers and administrators are expected to work in harmony with the General Conference Working Policy. Those who show inability or unwillingness to administer their work in harmony with policy should not be continued in executive leadership by their respective constituencies or governing boards/committees.

[Bob Pickle]

However, if church policy is a dead letter, and none of this means anything at all, then each is a law unto himself, and everyone can do as they please, without accountability to anyone.

And thus I wonder, what was all the hoopla about Danny Shelton really all about? Who cares how many wives Danny had, whether Danny had grounds to divorce Linda, how many boys Tommy molested, how long Danny covered it all up, how many millions Danny siphoned away from 3ABN, how many whistle blowers Danny fired and sued. No accountability, utter anarchy, don't dare call anyone to account for anything, much less call folks rebels who are encouraging revolt against the highest authority on earth under God.

I don't buy it. God is not the author of confusion. Let all things be done decently and in order. Unless inspiration clearly and unequivocally states something to the contrary, the GC Session votes must be adhered to, and church officers who refuse to do so must be replaced.

[Artiste]

Le1)t us look a bit more at the letter the Bob cites and the fundamental belief that is quoted:

1)  The fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church are focused on spiritual issues.  They are not focused on issues of anatomy.  IOW, they do not deal with whether or not males have breasts on which children can nurse.  OUr beleifs do not address the issue as to whether or nto men can give birth.  Whether or not men can nurse children and give birth has nothing to do with the spiritual roles that men and women play in spiritual nuture.

2)  The underlying fundamental belief says:  " . . . differences between . . . male and female, must not be divisive among us.  We are all equal in Christ, . . . we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation.  . . . We reach out in one witness to all.   This unity has its source int he oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children.?


The position of the author of the letter that Bob cites is that the cited fundamental belief clearly calls for no distisnction between males and females in the spiritual service that they give to the denomination.  I will suggest that position is correct.

This issue is complex.  Honest people do see it differently.  It is not fair to individuals involved to claim that those who favor the action of the Ckolumbia Union Conference are advocating rebellion and/'or are in rebellion.

Questions as to whether or not men can nurse and give birth simply make us look foolinsh.

One shoud argue their position on the basis of theBible and prior church practice.;  Again I will point out:  EGW carried the credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She filled a position of spiritual leadership.  So, did other women, one of whom was a Conference President for a short time.
 

"simply make us look foolish."

Please speak for yourself here, Gregory.

[Artiste]

B 15 15—Officers/Administrators to Work in Harmony with Policy—Officers and administrators are expected to work in harmony with the North American Division Working Policy. Those who show inability or unwillingness to administer their work in harmony with policy should not be continued in executive leadership by their respective constituencies or governing boards/committees.

B 15 15—Officers/Administrators to Work in Harmony with Policy—Officers and administrators are expected to work in harmony with the General Conference Working Policy. Those who show inability or unwillingness to administer their work in harmony with policy should not be continued in executive leadership by their respective constituencies or governing boards/committees.

That's very clear, that they should work in harmony.

Since the actions of CUC leadership clearly weren't in harmony, they should be removed.

[Artiste]

Did you already say who James Greene was?

[Bob Pickle]

Did you already say who James Greene was?

He's the executive secretary of the NJ Conf.

[Artiste]

Did you already say who James Greene was?

He's the executive secretary of the NJ Conf.

What did he do?

[Bob Pickle]

Did you already say who James Greene was?

He's the executive secretary of the NJ Conf.

What did he do?

James Greene justified his intended rebellion against the GC Session votes in this letter: http://www.columbiaunion.org/site/1/July%20Constituency/7-24-2012%20Ltr%20to%20Ted%20Wilson%20GC%20President.pdf.

[Artiste]

Interesting how these people quote Ellen White and refer to Martin Luther which they think proves their points.

I also noticed that some on either Atoday or Spectrum were acting surprised and disappointed that so many were expressing their disapproval of the actions of CUC.

Do they really think they are in the majority?

 

[Artiste]

The Christ or Culture petition against women's ordination for the PUC is getting very close to 5,000 signatures.

[Johann]

"Columbia Union Constituents Overwhelmingly Affirm Women Pastors Through Ordination" report from the special constituency session. Sharon Cress, Potomac Conference’s Women’s Ministries director, said at the meeting, “The General Conference calls for unity in the face of unfairness and this wounds deeply the women who serve this church,” she said. “Some have appealed for unity today to justify continuation of unfairness. I tell you there is no unity today, and there can be no unity as long as we practice unfairness.”

For many years Sharon worked together with her husband, who was the General Conference pastor's pastor. I had the pleasure of traveling a few hours with Jim Cress, and also corresponding with him. I think both of them went out of their way just to help any Adventist pastor or spouse, anywhere in the world. To me that is doctrine in real life.

[Bob Pickle]

Interesting how these people quote Ellen White and refer to Martin Luther which they think proves their points.

I also noticed that some on either Atoday or Spectrum were acting surprised and disappointed that so many were expressing their disapproval of the actions of CUC.

Do they really think they are in the majority?

No. I think they are vastly in the minority when you consider the entire Adventist membership.

[Bob Pickle]

"Columbia Union Constituents Overwhelmingly Affirm Women Pastors Through Ordination" report from the special constituency session. Sharon Cress, Potomac Conference’s Women’s Ministries director, said at the meeting, “The General Conference calls for unity in the face of unfairness and this wounds deeply the women who serve this church,” she said. “Some have appealed for unity today to justify continuation of unfairness. I tell you there is no unity today, and there can be no unity as long as we practice unfairness.”

For many years Sharon worked together with her husband, who was the General Conference pastor's pastor. I had the pleasure of traveling a few hours with Jim Cress, and also corresponding with him. I think both of them went out of their way just to help any Adventist pastor or spouse, anywhere in the world. To me that is doctrine in real life.

I wonder what her deceased husband would say if he were here, to see his wife display such leadership in the present rebellion. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, according to Scripture. What a sad day.

So Sharon justifies her participation in, support of, and active promotion of the present rebellion against the highest authority on earth under God on the basis of unfairness. Is this justification of fairness authorized in Scripture? If it were, would not Christ have authorized and urged rebellion against the Roman government? The Zealots certainly did. And wouldn't Paul have promoted rebellion of slaves against their masters?

One example I can think of in the SoP is Ellen White's urging that we disobey the Fugitive Slave Law. But when it comes to that topic, we should note that we have an explicit Bible verse that forbids that we return runaway slaves. Thus, the SoP's divine counsel on this point is based on a scriptural prohibition, not the notion of fairness.

Presuming that Sharon has kids and grandkids, is she comfortable with the idea of those kids or grandkids disregarding what their parents say whenever they think what the parents say is unfair? Would she agree that there can never be unity in the home whenever kids or grandkids perceive unfairness? I highly doubt it.

What is ironic about all of this is that the Potomac Conference didn't have a conference-level women's ministries program until perhaps June. So Sharon wasn't even in that position not long ago, and one of the conferences pushing the current rebellion didn't even have have a women's ministries department.

[Murcielago]

Is this justification of fairness authorized in Scripture? If it were, would not Christ have authorized and urged rebellion against the Roman government? The Zealots certainly did. And wouldn't Paul have promoted rebellion of slaves against their masters?

He may not have urged and authorized rebellion against the civil government, but he did engage in active and open rebellion against conservative church leadership and policy, encouraging people to break the laws of the church and disregard its policies.

[Artiste]

Is this justification of fairness authorized in Scripture? If it were, would not Christ have authorized and urged rebellion against the Roman government? The Zealots certainly did. And wouldn't Paul have promoted rebellion of slaves against their masters?

He may not have urged and authorized rebellion against the civil government, but he did engage in active and open rebellion against conservative church leadership and policy, encouraging people to break the laws of the church and disregard its policies.

How can you say that when He was the one who had originated the laws of the "church" (theocracy), Himself.