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[Snoopy]

     I believe based on my past experience what will happen when women get ordination. Let me digress for a second and talk about the Church's stance on jewelry and the health message as examples.

I can remember the great debate on jewelry and how there were those who were saying that they needed change because of the high rate of divorce. That culturally it was an exceptable thing in America now and that it would enhance the churches appeal to the world etc... Now looking at the progression some 20 years later there is hardly a church you go in that the women and men are not in earrings and some of the men and women have makeup on etc... The debate on wearing the wedding ring was really a debate on the acceptance of Jewelry. Many are baptized today while wearing not only wedding ring but jewelry in general. But the biggest plus for the change is that now those with money no longer have to give up something of status and what they love. In the end the church receives more tithe and membership and more of an acceptance of the world.

   A few years ago where I worked , an Adventist Institution, there was a debate about serving meat. Those in favor of meat being served in the facility used the fact that Ellen White had eaten meat and that the public at large would be more served if we served it. The facility had a vote and at first it was voted down, only to be brought up a number of times unitil they it was allowed, which occurred only after forcing a few who were against it into early retirement. The institution was an hospital who's goal was to heal the community and promote health. The institution has since grown financially and in overale size though it is no longer seen by many as a beacon of Adventism but rather a regular hospital like many others in the area. -----I almost forgot one humorous situation that occurred at about the same time. The Hospital had a drive to provide facilities and ashtrays for people to smoke, the same tactic as stated above was used to get it passed. Soon after allowing people to smoke the community and the United States at large lauded the dangers of smoking and the hospital went about touting there previous stance against smoking.

In the instances posted above none of the changes created a spiritual growth but in every case that I have mentioned the controversy drew us closer to the world and its stance.

I have no doubt that eventually the ordination for women will go foreward, and I do believe that in the eyes of the world the church will become more main stream and exceptable to the Protestant churches. But I also believe it will diminish the character and distinctiveness of the church. In the end it will be the opposite of what is believed and less credence will be given to the spirit of prophecy. The diabolical part of the controversy is the implication that somehow Ellen G. White wanted that to occur. The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet. Despite the many instances where she would reffer to her husband to help people to understand that her position was not design to lessen the family structure or for that matter the church structure.God has always had anomalies in the church however he has always had a  preferred standard and design for the church and home. In the end the church will appear more like it is about to fall but the faithfull will remain and the sinners will be sifted out. The two groups will continue to strive together until the harvest and the reaping and in the end we know God will win.

If you are male and wear a necktie, you have no room to talk about jewelry.  Of course, that's just my opinion.  But you will never convince me that a man's necktie serves any purpose other than to "adorn".  People spend so much time quibbling over stuff like this, while others in the world are suffering and need to know about Jesus.

[Snoopy]

The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet.

The fundamental Biblical issue is not ordination.  The Bible does not say much about ordination of either men or women.  The fundamental issue is the role that females shoulld play in spiritual nuture.  From that perspective, whatever position we take on the role of women affects Ellen White.  The Bible either prohibits, or permits, women to have a leaadership  role in spiritual nuture.    Once we establish that position, we should measure EGW by that standard.

Excellent!!  I agree 100%!  In my opinion, the church is full of double standards and inconsistencies.  According to the arguments of many SDAs on the topic of WO, Mrs. White comes out looking like a false prophet.

[christian]

     I believe based on my past experience what will happen when women get ordination. Let me digress for a second and talk about the Church's stance on jewelry and the health message as examples.

I can remember the great debate on jewelry and how there were those who were saying that they needed change because of the high rate of divorce. That culturally it was an exceptable thing in America now and that it would enhance the churches appeal to the world etc... Now looking at the progression some 20 years later there is hardly a church you go in that the women and men are not in earrings and some of the men and women have makeup on etc... The debate on wearing the wedding ring was really a debate on the acceptance of Jewelry. Many are baptized today while wearing not only wedding ring but jewelry in general. But the biggest plus for the change is that now those with money no longer have to give up something of status and what they love. In the end the church receives more tithe and membership and more of an acceptance of the world.

   A few years ago where I worked , an Adventist Institution, there was a debate about serving meat. Those in favor of meat being served in the facility used the fact that Ellen White had eaten meat and that the public at large would be more served if we served it. The facility had a vote and at first it was voted down, only to be brought up a number of times unitil they it was allowed, which occurred only after forcing a few who were against it into early retirement. The institution was an hospital who's goal was to heal the community and promote health. The institution has since grown financially and in overale size though it is no longer seen by many as a beacon of Adventism but rather a regular hospital like many others in the area. -----I almost forgot one humorous situation that occurred at about the same time. The Hospital had a drive to provide facilities and ashtrays for people to smoke, the same tactic as stated above was used to get it passed. Soon after allowing people to smoke the community and the United States at large lauded the dangers of smoking and the hospital went about touting there previous stance against smoking.

In the instances posted above none of the changes created a spiritual growth but in every case that I have mentioned the controversy drew us closer to the world and its stance.

I have no doubt that eventually the ordination for women will go foreward, and I do believe that in the eyes of the world the church will become more main stream and exceptable to the Protestant churches. But I also believe it will diminish the character and distinctiveness of the church. In the end it will be the opposite of what is believed and less credence will be given to the spirit of prophecy. The diabolical part of the controversy is the implication that somehow Ellen G. White wanted that to occur. The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet. Despite the many instances where she would reffer to her husband to help people to understand that her position was not design to lessen the family structure or for that matter the church structure.God has always had anomalies in the church however he has always had a  preferred standard and design for the church and home. In the end the church will appear more like it is about to fall but the faithfull will remain and the sinners will be sifted out. The two groups will continue to strive together until the harvest and the reaping and in the end we know God will win.

If you are male and wear a necktie, you have no room to talk about jewelry.  Of course, that's just my opinion.  But you will never convince me that a man's necktie serves any purpose other than to "adorn".  People spend so much time quibbling over stuff like this, while others in the world are suffering and need to know about Jesus.

I at no time talked about jewelry, except to bring out the result of the controversy about the ring not really being solely about the wedding ring. Your controversy is really not with me it is with the spirit of Prophecy and the Bible. Moreover there have been a number of times in the scripture when people thought things were quibbling, when God did not see them as thus. Satans way of convincing Eve to eat of the tree was to say in essence it is a little thing and you will not really die because of that. Some things are not bad in and of themselves and the person may live a relatively good life but in the end forfeit heaven because of it. The problem with many is they like you don't understand that the quote unquote little things are what will keep people out of the kingdom of heaven. There will be many who live a good life here enjoying the fruit of this land but in the end will not gain the greatest blessing, that being heaven. David saw people of such and commented they were like a blade of grass here today, gone tomorrow. All that live Godly will suffer persecution. The paraplegic that was let down in the mist of Jesus was not so much concerned about the relief of physical pain but what he wanted was to be with Jesus in heaven. The thief on the cross did not want to get off the cross, he wanted to be with Jesus. God fits the worker for truth under his standards to do the work that is before them. The devices of men will always fail to accomplish the task as long as the Lord is not put first. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[christian]

The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet.

The fundamental Biblical issue is not ordination.  The Bible does not say much about ordination of either men or women.  The fundamental issue is the role that females shoulld play in spiritual nuture.  From that perspective, whatever position we take on the role of women affects Ellen White.  The Bible either prohibits, or permits, women to have a leaadership  role in spiritual nuture.    Once we establish that position, we should measure EGW by that standard.
[/quot

Excellent!!  I agree 100%!  In my opinion, the church is full of double standards and inconsistencies.  According to the arguments of many SDAs on the topic of WO, Mrs. White comes out looking like a false prophet.

 I don't know how the topic of women ordination has anything to do with Ellen G. White. There is no double standard here at all. I keep asking the question why do women have breast if God intended for men and women to have the same role? I have yet to see an answer to that question. Even through the history of the Church itself, the Lord went to a man, black and white and when they were either unwilling or unable to carry the message a young girl was chosen. The history of Joan of Arch is of a similar case. However in both cases there is never an indication that the role of women should be changed even by the women so blessed. Instead in the case of Ellen and the rest men were elevated in the service of God. Only, Satan who found himself to be equal with God is concerned with position, and I can see why he would want to blurr the lines between men and women. As far as prophecy goes there are women prophets in the bible and examples of women being judge but this is not the desired course of God. Why do you think God did not pick Joseph to bear Jesus in his stomach? Some may laugh at the preposterous statement but it cuts to the root of the diabolical plan of Satan. Joseph was to be the man and do his part as a man and Mary was to be a woman and be exactly that a woman. Of course the Catholic church has placed Mary the virgin over everyone. The Adventist church while seeing Ellen G. Whites writings as inspired of God do not see Ellen G. White as Holy. Thus Adventist understand that women and men have different roles in the church and home but both of equal value. We realize that there are occasions where the different responsibility of both will be shared, however that in not the norm. The church will do everything in its power to maintain the clear lines of responsibility of men and women. This controversyof women ordination is a self generated one by some, I believe, who do not really care about women but fain so not knowing or intentionally trying to destroy the foundation of the church. Christ is the groom and the church is the bride by bible standards. Some wrongly would have you believe the bible is gender neutral.

[Snoopy]

I at no time talked about jewelry, except to bring out the result of the controversy about the ring not really being solely about the wedding ring. Your controversy is really not with me it is with the spirit of Prophecy and the Bible. Moreover there have been a number of times in the scripture when people thought things were quibbling, when God did not see them as thus. Satans way of convincing Eve to eat of the tree was to say in essence it is a little thing and you will not really die because of that. Some things are not bad in and of themselves and the person may live a relatively good life but in the end forfeit heaven because of it. The problem with many is they like you don't understand that the quote unquote little things are what will keep people out of the kingdom of heaven. There will be many who live a good life here enjoying the fruit of this land but in the end will not gain the greatest blessing, that being heaven. David saw people of such and commented they were like a blade of grass here today, gone tomorrow. All that live Godly will suffer persecution. The paraplegic that was let down in the mist of Jesus was not so much concerned about the relief of physical pain but what he wanted was to be with Jesus in heaven. The thief on the cross did not want to get off the cross, he wanted to be with Jesus. God fits the worker for truth under his standards to do the work that is before them. The devices of men will always fail to accomplish the task as long as the Lord is not put first. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You may not have spoke of jewelry, but there are others here who have mentioned it many times, as if wearing earrings is going to keep somebody out of heaven.  And when it is a man who does the judging, I just chuckle inside since more likely than not, the man faithfully wears his necktie to church every Sabbath as he looks down his nose on those heathen women.  THOSE are the ones I have a controversy with...not SOP or the Bible.  There are plenty of "christians" (no pun intended with your screen name) who are so busy being "right" and judging everybody else that they can't see the HUGE plank in their own eye.

[Snoopy]

The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet.

The fundamental Biblical issue is not ordination.  The Bible does not say much about ordination of either men or women.  The fundamental issue is the role that females shoulld play in spiritual nuture.  From that perspective, whatever position we take on the role of women affects Ellen White.  The Bible either prohibits, or permits, women to have a leaadership  role in spiritual nuture.    Once we establish that position, we should measure EGW by that standard.

Excellent!!  I agree 100%!  In my opinion, the church is full of double standards and inconsistencies.  According to the arguments of many SDAs on the topic of WO, Mrs. White comes out looking like a false prophet.

 I don't know how the topic of women ordination has anything to do with Ellen G. White. There is no double standard here at all. I keep asking the question why do women have breast if God intended for men and women to have the same role? I have yet to see an answer to that question. Even through the history of the Church itself, the Lord went to a man, black and white and when they were either unwilling or unable to carry the message a young girl was chosen. The history of Joan of Arch is of a similar case. However in both cases there is never an indication that the role of women should be changed even by the women so blessed. Instead in the case of Ellen and the rest men were elevated in the service of God. Only, Satan who found himself to be equal with God is concerned with position, and I can see why he would want to blurr the lines between men and women. As far as prophecy goes there are women prophets in the bible and examples of women being judge but this is not the desired course of God. Why do you think God did not pick Joseph to bear Jesus in his stomach? Some may laugh at the preposterous statement but it cuts to the root of the diabolical plan of Satan. Joseph was to be the man and do his part as a man and Mary was to be a woman and be exactly that a woman. Of course the Catholic church has placed Mary the virgin over everyone. The Adventist church while seeing Ellen G. Whites writings as inspired of God do not see Ellen G. White as Holy. Thus Adventist understand that women and men have different roles in the church and home but both of equal value. We realize that there are occasions where the different responsibility of both will be shared, however that in not the norm. The church will do everything in its power to maintain the clear lines of responsibility of men and women. This controversyof women ordination is a self generated one by some, I believe, who do not really care about women but fain so not knowing or intentionally trying to destroy the foundation of the church. Christ is the groom and the church is the bride by bible standards. Some wrongly would have you believe the bible is gender neutral.

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.  Period.  Having one set of standards for her and another set for everybody else...well...actually that does fit right in with the way the church operates, but it makes no sense.

[Bob Pickle]

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.

Did you mean co-founded instead of founded?

If we want to talk about the founder, we have to talk about James, White, not Ellen White. If we want to talk about co-founders, then we can talk about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, and perhaps Hiram Edson.

[Snoopy]

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.

Did you mean co-founded instead of founded?

If we want to talk about the founder, we have to talk about James, White, not Ellen White. If we want to talk about co-founders, then we can talk about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, and perhaps Hiram Edson.

No, I meant founder, just as I said.  None of the others authored the SOP as far as I know.

[Bob Pickle]

You may not have spoke of jewelry, but there are others here who have mentioned it many times, as if wearing earrings is going to keep somebody out of heaven.

If eating a piece of fruit could keep Adam and Eve out of Eden, why couldn't wearing jewelry keep a man or woman out of heaven? Why not?

Is. 4:4, in light of Is. 3:16-24, sounds pretty rough. But I don't see any problem including in the warning fancy attire worn by men, even though the description in these passages is only regarding women.

[Snoopy]

You may not have spoke of jewelry, but there are others here who have mentioned it many times, as if wearing earrings is going to keep somebody out of heaven.

If eating a piece of fruit could keep Adam and Eve out of Eden, why couldn't wearing jewelry keep a man or woman out of heaven? Why not?

Is. 4:4, in light of Is. 3:16-24, sounds pretty rough. But I don't see any problem including in the warning fancy attire worn by men, even though the description in these passages is only regarding women.

Whatever you say, Bob.  I think my meaning was pretty clear, but you can try to muddy it up, if that makes you feel better.

[Bob Pickle]

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.

Did you mean co-founded instead of founded?

If we want to talk about the founder, we have to talk about James, White, not Ellen White. If we want to talk about co-founders, then we can talk about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, and perhaps Hiram Edson.

No, I meant founder, just as I said.  None of the others authored the SOP as far as I know.

She may have authored the SoP, but she was not THE founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. She is officially listed as a co-founder along with Bates and sometimes Edson. James White is listed as THE founder.

Each of these four individuals made important contributions. Bates was the evangelist and promoted the Sabbath. Ellen was the prophetic voice. Edson at least contributed the sanctuary message. James was the publisher and the organizer.

[Snoopy]

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.

Did you mean co-founded instead of founded?

If we want to talk about the founder, we have to talk about James, White, not Ellen White. If we want to talk about co-founders, then we can talk about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, and perhaps Hiram Edson.

No, I meant founder, just as I said.  None of the others authored the SOP as far as I know.

She may have authored the SoP, but she was not THE founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. She is officially listed as a co-founder along with Bates and sometimes Edson. James White is listed as THE founder.

Each of these four individuals made important contributions. Bates was the evangelist and promoted the Sabbath. Ellen was the prophetic voice. Edson at least contributed the sanctuary message. James was the publisher and the organizer.

Again, whatever you say, Bob.  You know exactly what I meant.  It gets really tiring trying to converse with you.

[Bob Pickle]

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.

Did you mean co-founded instead of founded?

If we want to talk about the founder, we have to talk about James, White, not Ellen White. If we want to talk about co-founders, then we can talk about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, and perhaps Hiram Edson.

No, I meant founder, just as I said.  None of the others authored the SOP as far as I know.

She may have authored the SoP, but she was not THE founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. She is officially listed as a co-founder along with Bates and sometimes Edson. James White is listed as THE founder.

Each of these four individuals made important contributions. Bates was the evangelist and promoted the Sabbath. Ellen was the prophetic voice. Edson at least contributed the sanctuary message. James was the publisher and the organizer.

Again, whatever you say, Bob.  You know exactly what I meant.  It gets really tiring trying to converse with you.

It's an important point when dealing with critics. They may say as part of their attack that our church was founded by Ellen White, when that isn't true. Their strategy seems to be to attribute everything to her and then discredit her. Since I've had to deal with this kind of thing in the past, that's why I tend to notice it.

But check out sources like the SDA Encyclopedia, and you'll find that James White is listed as the founder, while Ellen White is one of two or three co-founders.

[Artiste]

Kind of like Danny Shelton, founder of 3ABN, and Linda Shelton, co-founder.

[Snoopy]

Sorry - I totally disagree with you.  The SDA church was founded by a woman.

Did you mean co-founded instead of founded?

If we want to talk about the founder, we have to talk about James, White, not Ellen White. If we want to talk about co-founders, then we can talk about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, and perhaps Hiram Edson.

No, I meant founder, just as I said.  None of the others authored the SOP as far as I know.

She may have authored the SoP, but she was not THE founder of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. She is officially listed as a co-founder along with Bates and sometimes Edson. James White is listed as THE founder.

Each of these four individuals made important contributions. Bates was the evangelist and promoted the Sabbath. Ellen was the prophetic voice. Edson at least contributed the sanctuary message. James was the publisher and the organizer.

Again, whatever you say, Bob.  You know exactly what I meant.  It gets really tiring trying to converse with you.

It's an important point when dealing with critics. They may say as part of their attack that our church was founded by Ellen White, when that isn't true. Their strategy seems to be to attribute everything to her and then discredit her. Since I've had to deal with this kind of thing in the past, that's why I tend to notice it.

But check out sources like the SDA Encyclopedia, and you'll find that James White is listed as the founder, while Ellen White is one of two or three co-founders.

Then somebody needs to explain that to Dr. Dwight Nelson.