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[christian]

     I believe based on my past experience what will happen when women get ordination. Let me digress for a second and talk about the Church's stance on jewelry and the health message as examples.

I can remember the great debate on jewelry and how there were those who were saying that they needed change because of the high rate of divorce. That culturally it was an exceptable thing in America now and that it would enhance the churches appeal to the world etc... Now looking at the progression some 20 years later there is hardly a church you go in that the women and men are not in earrings and some of the men and women have makeup on etc... The debate on wearing the wedding ring was really a debate on the acceptance of Jewelry. Many are baptized today while wearing not only wedding ring but jewelry in general. But the biggest plus for the change is that now those with money no longer have to give up something of status and what they love. In the end the church receives more tithe and membership and more of an acceptance of the world.

   A few years ago where I worked , an Adventist Institution, there was a debate about serving meat. Those in favor of meat being served in the facility used the fact that Ellen White had eaten meat and that the public at large would be more served if we served it. The facility had a vote and at first it was voted down, only to be brought up a number of times unitil they it was allowed, which occurred only after forcing a few who were against it into early retirement. The institution was an hospital who's goal was to heal the community and promote health. The institution has since grown financially and in overale size though it is no longer seen by many as a beacon of Adventism but rather a regular hospital like many others in the area. -----I almost forgot one humorous situation that occurred at about the same time. The Hospital had a drive to provide facilities and ashtrays for people to smoke, the same tactic as stated above was used to get it passed. Soon after allowing people to smoke the community and the United States at large lauded the dangers of smoking and the hospital went about touting there previous stance against smoking.

In the instances posted above none of the changes created a spiritual growth but in every case that I have mentioned the controversy drew us closer to the world and its stance.

I have no doubt that eventually the ordination for women will go foreward, and I do believe that in the eyes of the world the church will become more main stream and exceptable to the Protestant churches. But I also believe it will diminish the character and distinctiveness of the church. In the end it will be the opposite of what is believed and less credence will be given to the spirit of prophecy. The diabolical part of the controversy is the implication that somehow Ellen G. White wanted that to occur. The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet. Despite the many instances where she would reffer to her husband to help people to understand that her position was not design to lessen the family structure or for that matter the church structure.God has always had anomalies in the church however he has always had a  preferred standard and design for the church and home. In the end the church will appear more like it is about to fall but the faithfull will remain and the sinners will be sifted out. The two groups will continue to strive together until the harvest and the reaping and in the end we know God will win. 

[Bob Pickle]

I'll add another example also regarding a hospital. A health worker there told me quite some time back that a fellow came in to give them all a pep talk about how it was good to do good on the Sabbath. Since non-Adventists had off on Saturday and weren't in church, it was fine to do non-emergency, elective surgery on Sabbath.

The employees listening thought, but that's the only time we have off, something like that.

Next thing they knew they were being scheduled to do non-emergency, elective surgery on Sabbath, without getting their vote, approval, or permission.

These things ought not to be. If we are going to have the greatest outpouring of the blessing of God, we have to be obedient to His will.

[Gregory]

1)  Christ did non emergency healing onthe Sabbath.  He was crilticized for such.

2) Our mission programs often provide non-emergency medical and dental care, free of charge, ontheSabbath.

[Gregory]

The second most diabolical implication is that somehow if we don't ordinate women it somehow takes away the influence of the lady Ellen G. White that called herself more than a prophet.

The fundamental Biblical issue is not ordination.  The Bible does not say much about ordination of either men or women.  The fundamental issue is the role that females shoulld play in spiritual nuture.  From that perspective, whatever position we take on the role of women affects Ellen White.  The Bible either prohibits, or permits, women to have a leaadership  role in spiritual nuture.    Once we establish that position, we should measure EGW by that standard.

[Bob Pickle]

1)  Christ did non emergency healing onthe Sabbath.  He was crilticized for such.

2) Our mission programs often provide non-emergency medical and dental care, free of charge, ontheSabbath.

Christ's miracles relieved suffering, true. But why schedule a hernia repair, for example, on Sabbath when it can just as easily be scheduled for a different day? I seem to recall that Ellen White has some counsel regarding medical workers and doing routine work on the Sabbath.

[Gregory]

A hernia can be painful.

Christ was criticized for d oing healing that could have been done on another day.

[Johann]

     I believe based on my past experience what will happen when women get ordination.

It seems like there was a time before 1889 when some people believed a black male pastor could never be ordained in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.  What happened after that? What gates did that open? Did the Seventh-day Adventist Church survive? Did we follow our prophetic guidance?

[Gregory]

Bob, most surgeries performed in hospitals are not of the "face lift" elective type.

Modern medicine can postpone many types of surgery.  I have seen a broken hip postponed for three days, due to a clinical reason.  We kept the patient in the hospital (required care from ward personnel) and medicated him into a state free of pain.  But, without the clinical reason for not doing immediate surgery, it would  not have been good care to postpone for 3 days.

Christ clearly  gave care on the Sabbath that could have been given the next day.  There was no immediate, required, need.

Cancerous tumors can often wait.  Most broken bones can wait.  But, what does it say about God to tell a patient that we must wait until after the Sabbath to pin broken bones together?  In the mean time, we will medicate them into a state where they are feeling no pain. 

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, most surgeries performed in hospitals are not of the "face lift" elective type.

Modern medicine can postpone many types of surgery.  I have seen a broken hip postponed for three days, due to a clinical reason.  We kept the patient in the hospital (required care from ward personnel) and medicated him into a state free of pain.  But, without the clinical reason for not doing immediate surgery, it would  not have been good care to postpone for 3 days.

Christ clearly  gave care on the Sabbath that could have been given the next day.  There was no immediate, required, need.

Cancerous tumors can often wait.  Most broken bones can wait.  But, what does it say about God to tell a patient that we must wait until after the Sabbath to pin broken bones together?  In the mean time, we will medicate them into a state where they are feeling no pain.

Gregory, you discussion does not do picture what was described to me. What was described was the intentional scheduling of surgeries on Sabbath, in advance.

"Mr. So and So, I see you need to have surgery for such and such. Which day would work for you?"

"I'm off work on Saturday. How about Saturday."

"Yes, we do have an opening for Saturday."

Look at CH 223, 235. Our medical facilities are supposed to be memorials to the true Sabbath. If they operate like a worldly business in that they do routine, non-essential work on the Sabbath, then they aren't serving the purpose for which they were founded, according to CH 223, 235.

"A spirit of irreverence and carelessness in the observance of the Sabbath is liable to come into our sanitariums. ... Especially should every physician endeavor to set a right example. The nature of his duties naturally leads him to feel justified in doing on the Sabbath many things that he should refrain from doing. So far as possible, he should so plan his work that he can lay aside his ordinary duties.

"Those who, from whatever cause, are obliged to work on the Sabbath, are always in peril; they feel the loss, and from doing works of necessity they fall into the habit of doing things on the Sabbath that are not necessary" (CH 422).

It isn't just in scheduling routine surgeries that we've had some challenges in recent years. Collecting parking lot fees on Friday night after sunset has also been a problem at at least one hospital, but they fixed that, which was good.

[Bob Pickle]

It seems like there was a time before 1889 when some people believed a black male pastor could never be ordained in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Could you provide more details?

[Gregory]

Bob:

I work in a teaching hospital.  We never schedule surgeries for Saturday or Sunday.  Do we do them on those days.  Yes, but not often. When we do it is because we belive it necessary.  It is never for mere convience.


  NOTE:  Clinically, we can postpone if required.  We can medicate to the point where the person is feeling no pain.  We can generally keep a person alive until  we take them to susrgery.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob:

I work in a teaching hospital.  We never schedule surgeries for Saturday or Sunday.  Do we do them on those days.  Yes, but not often. When we do it is because we belive it necessary.  It is never for mere convience.


  NOTE:  Clinically, we can postpone if required.  We can medicate to the point where the person is feeling no pain.  We can generally keep a person alive until  we take them to susrgery.

The concerned employee definitely referred to a change of practice without their input, whereby regular surgeries were now being scheduled in advance for Sabbath, after a guy was brought in to give them a pep talk about why it was all right.

[Artiste]

I'm not surprised by that, since such a large percentage of both doctors and employees at the medical center I am most familiar with are not Adventists.  I could see it happening elsewhere.

[Bob Pickle]

I'm not surprised by that, since such a large percentage of both doctors and employees at the medical center I am most familiar with are not Adventists.  I could see it happening elsewhere.

But the concerned employee was an Adventist, and didn't like it, and if it got worse was going to take a stand according to what he/she said.

[Artiste]

Is the employee taking a stand now?