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[christian]

 Has the church grown spiritually or has it declined? I could be wrong but it seems that the church has decreased in its spirituality. Assuming I am correct why is this occurring and what can be done about it? I have been in the church for about 47 years and have seen the great change in the way the church operates. It use to be that going to the movies was prohibited, listening to worldly music was discouraged. More emphasis was put on prayer and fasting. One of the biggest changes is the way (in my opinion) we looked at the soon return of Christ. The entire direction of the Church seems to have change and the current church is in some cases diametrically opposed to the later, why? why? why?

[Johann]

Has the church grown spiritually or has it declined? I could be wrong but it seems that the church has decreased in its spirituality. Assuming I am correct why is this occurring and what can be done about it? I have been in the church for about 47 years and have seen the great change in the way the church operates. It use to be that going to the movies was prohibited, listening to worldly music was discouraged. More emphasis was put on prayer and fasting. One of the biggest changes is the way (in my opinion) we looked at the soon return of Christ. The entire direction of the Church seems to have change and the current church is in some cases diametrically opposed to the later, why? why? why?

Christian, I know what you mean. I was baptized 66 years ago, and what a change. Diametrically opposed - yes there are so many instances. Take the differences between our present president and his father. Neal Wilson named openly in his sermons heresies that were creeping into the church, things that his son today is proclaiming as truths. Is that creating greater spirituality in our church?

[Bob Pickle]

Neal Wilson named openly in his sermons heresies that were creeping into the church, things that his son today is proclaiming as truths.

Could you be more specific? What specific heresies?

[Johann]

Neal Wilson named openly in his sermons heresies that were creeping into the church, things that his son today is proclaiming as truths.

Could you be more specific? What specific heresies?

It must have been around 1990 or latest 1992 when we had a camp meeting in Oslo for church members in Norway and Denmark while both countries were still members of the West Nordic Union. Our main speaker was Neal Wilson, president of the General Conference. While a Scandinavian pastor was preaching, I was sitting next to Neal Wilson because I had been asked to interpret the sermon for him into English. I noticed he was getting more and more worried as he heard the doctrines of Hartland and Our Firm Foundation being presented, dealing with the nature of Christ and perfection, until he suddenly turned to Jan Paulsen, who was sitting right by us, demanding if the speaker was really saying what he heard through my interpretation. Jan Paulsen, who at that time was the president of our Division, understood the language of the speaker, and he immediately confirmed my translation had been  correct.

When Neal Wilson spoke again from the pulpit he warned the audience not to be led astray by such false interpretation of Scripture.

Just before I wrote the post above, I was reading a report on the theology of Ted Wilson back in 2008, which seemed to be uncomfortably close to what his father had warned against. If Ted Wilson has redeemed himself since then, I'd be glad to know of it.

[christian]

Neal Wilson named openly in his sermons heresies that were creeping into the church, things that his son today is proclaiming as truths.

Could you be more specific? What specific heresies?

It must have been around 1990 or latest 1992 when we had a camp meeting in Oslo for church members in Norway and Denmark while both countries were still members of the West Nordic Union. Our main speaker was Neal Wilson, president of the General Conference. While a Scandinavian pastor was preaching, I was sitting next to Neal Wilson because I had been asked to interpret the sermon for him into English. I noticed he was getting more and more worried as he heard the doctrines of Hartland and Our Firm Foundation being presented, dealing with the nature of Christ and perfection, until he suddenly turned to Jan Paulsen, who was sitting right by us, demanding if the speaker was really saying what he heard through my interpretation. Jan Paulsen, who at that time was the president of our Division, understood the language of the speaker, and he immediately confirmed my translation had been  correct.

When Neal Wilson spoke again from the pulpit he warned the audience not to be led astray by such false interpretation of Scripture.

Just before I wrote the post above, I was reading a report on the theology of Ted Wilson back in 2008, which seemed to be uncomfortably close to what his father had warned against. If Ted Wilson has redeemed himself since then, I'd be glad to know of it.

I have been associated with people from Hartland and Our Firm Foundation and their righteousness by faith message. I even visited one of their campmeetings in Virginia. I have listen and found them to be very sincere and correct in their interpretation. I was reminded that John the Baptist and eventually Jesus himself would be seen as an offshoot. It is amazing to me that people would say that you cannot be perfect while at the same time teaching the commandments of God. Obviously if you cannot keep the commandments of God there would be no reason to teach men thus, and the Sabbath would be totally of no use. So what I found was that it is absolutely imperative in the last days that by the power of God we overcome all sin. The misunderstanding of Righteousness by Faith is what is causing the downward decent of the spirituality of the church. If there is no understanding that God is demanding perfection then there are only degrees and man would be in essence in control of his own salvation. As far as the nature of God goes the Bible says He was tempted in all ways as we are but without sin.   

[christian]

When probation closes we will have to stand before God without a intercessor.

[Johann]

When probation closes we will have to stand before God without a intercessor.

I'd encourage all to read prayerfully chapter 39 in The Great Controversy which deals with this question. Some people take only portions of this chapter and then add their own opinions.

A correction: The meetings I referred to before with Neal Wilson and others were held at Ekeberg, Oslo,  the weekend of May 14, 1988. I have now had contact with three other persons who were there. The first two remembered the events, but not the date. The third one had the union paper where the meetings were announced, including the speakers. This verified the right date as 1988.

[Gregory]

Christian asked:

Has the church grown spiritually or has it declined?

I will sugest that the answer to the above qeustion is not simple.

I will aslso suggest that both may have happened.

The Bible and Ellen White, as I understand them, are clear that the Christian life is a life of growth.  at every stage, I will suggest, that God has more to teach us, if we are willing to listen.  In my opinion, growth has taken place in that we have become more focused on Christ and what he accomplished at the Cross.  We are more able today, in my thinking, to distinguish between the central focus and tennants of salvation and those that are not central.  WE have become more oriented on Righteousness by Faith.  We have becom less legalistic.  NOTE:  I Did not say legalism is totally gone. 

At the same time, the Bible is clear that in End Time the "world" will have infiltrated the Church.  The typical Adventist depends less on prayer and devotional reading of the Bible.  [We still use the Bible to pound others.]  We live less in the certainty of the 2nd Comming and are focused more on living in the world.  We typically have less of a personal sense to evangalize--bring othrs into a personal relationshlp with Christ.  We all to often focus more on the "sins" that we claim to see in our fellow Adventist than we do on our personal relationship wiht Christ.    We often present a God ot others that is either unattractive or not important.

You may notice that in my listing of problem areas, I have not mentioned the flash points of music, dress and adornment.  Why?  Because in the   overall structure of our spiritual life, I consider the issues that I have mentioned to be much more important that the questions of music, dress and adornment.    These three are all culturally conditioned.  the boundaries differ in differing cultures.  And, they differ from time to time.  I am thinking now, of a Conference where members were subject to discipline to include expelling from membershilp, if they were seen wearing blue jeans in public.  I kid you not. 

We are not an International denominstion with 17 million members, most of whom live outside the United States.  These members travel.  They come to the U.S. and  they bring their specific spiritual and cultural backgrounds with them.  It is painful, and confusing, to some of our members to be confronted by the realith that some Adventists just do not look, live and believe exactly like us.

The easy reaction to this is often to pint fingers to what we call the decline in standards taht we think we see.  In doing so we often forget that those with whom we are pingint the fingers are often confused when they look at us.  I have preached in Asia, with a translator.  There have been times when my translator has had to explain comments that I made in my sermon in the context of cultural differences.

Yes, God has standards that apply everywhere and in all cultures.  They are simply uniform.  But, I do not think suchto be tru for everything.  Some things I think are culturally determined.  God expects Christians to not be offensive within the culture inwhich the Christin is living.  No, if itis ofensive to follow God, then be offensive and follow god.  But, some cultureal issues are not of such.  Wearing blue jeans is not cnetral to the gospil.  But, if one is in a culture in which blue jeans would be offensive to what Christians want to portray, then don't wear blue jeans.  But, allow others, in other cultures, to wear them.

[Murcielago]

Has the church grown spiritually or has it declined? I could be wrong but it seems that the church has decreased in its spirituality. Assuming I am correct why is this occurring and what can be done about it? I have been in the church for about 47 years and have seen the great change in the way the church operates. It use to be that going to the movies was prohibited, listening to worldly music was discouraged. More emphasis was put on prayer and fasting. One of the biggest changes is the way (in my opinion) we looked at the soon return of Christ. The entire direction of the Church seems to have change and the current church is in some cases diametrically opposed to the later, why? why? why?

What qualifies as spiritual decline to some is reformation and revival to others.

[christian]

    Thanks for the responses. My mind is brought back to the time just prior to Christ first appearance as a baby, Ellen White would say and the Bible would allude to the fact that man was in a deplorable state but did not recognize it. Though the scriptures made it abundantly clear that times would get worse and the time of the Messiah would not be welcome the Priest and Scribes to a large degree still, though totally void of understanding, held sway that they were bound for for the promise land.

    Today  I contend we are in much the same condition, spiritless for the most part, but pridefull and convinced that no matter what we do we are chosen of God. The outward condition of the church member, movies, dress, music for the vast majority are a blatant sign of the condition of the heart. The taste of the Christian are not culturally driven but are driven because of a lust and love for the things of the world. Well we know the requirements of the savior but like Eve we eat of the tree and minimize the consequences because the penalty is not immediately seen. The sad thing is that, I believe, millions will be lost simply because they willfully chose the things of the world and have no real love for Christ. Some how we have been conviced that the (what we consider) minimal things will not keep us from the Savior or Kingdom of Heaven. We forget that heaven was lost because Adam willfully disregarded the instruction of God and ate of the tree.

     The most disturbing thing about the church at large seems to be its ability to justify its own existence above that of Christ himself. Our institutions in the name of Education teach heresy with the justification for doing so of, we must occupy until he come, accreditation is more important than Christ. And there are many who see wrong in anyone who corrects them, saying they are legalistic for doing so "all that live Godly shall suffer persecution." The goal of the Christian is not to be esteemed in this world or to live a lavish life in the name of Christ. The goal of the Christian should be to save souls and love the Lord with all his might.   

[Johann]

Many years ago I went to hear this "great" preacher, Dr. Colin Standich, when he appeared in our area. His sermon started out by him complaining his friend had not introduced him well enough, whereupon he started listing all of the high positions he had had while working for the Church. Unfortunately someone did not like him, so he lost his position as a president, and he was not able to get any new position as a president of anything. Then he had no choice but establish his own institution of which he appointed himself as president, a position no one could take from him.

For a while he lamented how strange the church had become, and as an illustration he told of a church in Australia which had to fire their pastor. The following Sabbath the former pastor appeared in church wearing sunglasses and shorts. This was how low the church had sunk, that a former pastor could appear there in such an attire!

I never understood what that was supposed to prove, nor have I seen much clearness in any of his writings that I have read.

Then the "president" launched out against the preaching in the churches which resulted in this terrible lack of church discipline. It was because the pastors had started preaching about the importance of a relationship in stead of discipline and keeping the law. To me it sounded like a relationship with the Lord was unhealthy.

After listening to that presidential sermon I understood why the General Conference president was warning us against that kind of preaching.

In our churches we had a number of people who were gaining great "blessings" from such preaching. There was a man who had brought up his children with mixed success. Now he was so thrilled with the new "powerful" preaching because now he had reached perfection. I heard him state that if he only could get hold of a newborn baby he could, with this new gospel, bring that child up without ever committing any sin!

Then there was a young person who testified freely that since he gained the new knowledge he had never committed another sin. It was so far in the past already that he could not even remember when it was he had sinned. Someone asked him if he had stopped praying the Lord's Prayer, and he said he did not need to do that any more, because he just did not waste his time sinning, since the new teaching had showed him how to avoid sin.

Shortly after that our conference president, who, since his early youth had been an ardent Bible student, invited members in the conference to a series of studies  in Romans. There is nothing that stirs the hearts and understanding of souls as a thorough study of Scripture. It is the lack of personal Bible study and Scriptural preaching that give such heresies inroads among us.

Unfortunately some of the new adherents of perfectionism did not think they needed the words of Paul to the Romans, because they had reached a level above that with their newfound faith, so they argued with the speaker. Fortunately the Word subdues.

Pray that the Word of God may find an avenue to our hearts so the Spirit of God may prepare us for the difficult days ahead. I will keep in mind the warnings given to us by president Neal Wilson, and the Scripture reasons he gave us for following a steady course.

[Bob Pickle]

Standish, as I recall, took a call to be academic dean at Weimar which hadn't opened yet, after serving as president of CUC.

After serving 5 years at Weimar, he with Dr. Dennis Blum, Dr. John Goley, Weimar graduate Hal Mayer, and perhaps others, started up Hartland.

So I don't think there was the hiatus you suggest between CUC and Hartland.

[Johann]

So I don't think there was the hiatus you suggest between CUC and Hartland.

I'm only going by his own account the way I understood it, not suggesting anything.

[christian]

So I don't think there was the hiatus you suggest between CUC and Hartland.

I'm only going by his own account the way I understood it, not suggesting anything.

My mind is brought back to the book of Job where the bible descibing Job would say "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Later on we find Satan going up and down in the earth surveying his victoms, but Job was an exception one that was PERFECT.

I am very aware of the problem, there are those who do not believe they can by the power of God overcome all sin, thus they are trapped in the most cruel religion. The knowledge of righteousness without the power to perform it is the most damming condition to be in, even worse than thinking God will burn you for an eternity. That is why the Bible says without faith it is impossible to please him for He that cometh to Him must believe.

The battle is not with Hartland or our Firm Foundation the battle is with the bible. The Bible says if you break one commandment you are guilty of all, so how can you keep the Sabbath without keeping the rest of the commandments? Or what good does it do to try and keep the Sabbath if you cannot keep it?

The physical miracles of the bible were to be a lesson for the spiritual growth for those who trust God. Elijah outrunning the chariot, Samson's strength, Gideon's battle and many more miracles were design to strengthen trust in God and demonstrate God's power to save. Ellen White would say that God is waiting for the duplication of his character before he will come back.

The bible would record that people in the last days would have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof, and that is exactly what is happening. Once again Satan is going to and fro in the earth and pointing his finger and saying see.

A distortion of the truth will not diminish it's truthfullness, Johann. And the true Christian could never boast about perfection because he would understand it is not him but God working through him. ABSOLUTELY GOD IS WILLING AND REQUIRES THE RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH IN HIM TO OVERCOME EVERY SIN, AND YES IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO THE HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.

[Johann]

So I don't think there was the hiatus you suggest between CUC and Hartland.

The battle is not with Hartland or our Firm Foundation the battle is with the bible. The Bible says if you break one commandment you are guilty of all, so how can you keep the Sabbath without keeping the rest of the commandments? Or what good does it do to try and keep the Sabbath if you cannot keep it?

Quite true, Christian. But these were the ones who were attacking us in our churches. They were told to stay active in their local churches, so when they had their private meetings they were on Sabbath afternoons and evenings so that their people would attend the local Sabbath School and church service in the morning.

Participating in the Sabbath School discussion, there were times when it seemed like the only portion of the Bible which really meant something to them was 1 John 3:4. They would not even consider the rest of that chapter written by the Apostle John.

Such one-sided Bible reading does not lead to a reformation nor a greater spiritual life in the church, and that could be one reason why these Independent Ministries were not acknowledged by the General Conference as supporting the Church.