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[Gregory]

The dateline is absolutely necessary.  The only thing that is arbitrary is the point in the Pacific Ocean where it is crossed.

Correct.

[Gregory]

In my previous commenet on quantum mechanics, I got sloppy.  I should have referenced "Einstein and his theory or realitivity.l

[Johann]

To further complicate things: Now we have placed a human "vehicle" on the planet Mars. If we manage to place a human being there, how would she/he keep a Sabbath since there is no other planet in our solar system which has a 24-hour day cycle? Years would also be different?

How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?

[Gregory]

Johann, all questions for which ther is no r eal answer.

NOTE:  The Sabbath as we experience it is related to the creation of the Earth.  As we understand it, it is not related to some other planet in some other solar system in some other galexy.  I am not saying tht it does nto exist out there.  IL am only saying that we    do not understand it.

[Johann]

Johann, all questions for which ther is no r eal answer.

NOTE:  The Sabbath as we experience it is related to the creation of the Earth.  As we understand it, it is not related to some other planet in some other solar system in some other galexy.  I am not saying tht it does nto exist out there.  IL am only saying that we    do not understand it.

Which is my point as well. I was just looking at a map of  the new international date line. It is quite far from being a straight line since it wriggles in between islands of the Pacific, seemingly depending on where they have the greatest trade interests.

Can we base our Sabbath celebration on commercial interests?

[Bob Pickle]

How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?

In the new earth there will be a sundown and sunrise every day. While the New Jerusalem has no need of a sun or moon, that doesn't mean that there is no sun or moon.

Isaiah 30:26  Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

See MH 506; 8T 42.

[Johann]

How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?

In the new earth there will be a sundown and sunrise every day. While the New Jerusalem has no need of a sun or moon, that doesn't mean that there is no sun or moon.

Isaiah 30:26  Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

See MH 506; 8T 42.

Mine was a question, not a statement.
We will first, both males and females, spend a 1,000 years in heaven, before the New Earth emerges as our abode.

Our solar system shows us that there is no other planet in our system where there is a 24-hour day. My question was based on this fact, and had nothing to do with the New Earth, where we should be back on a 24-hour system, since it is the same planet.

[Bob Pickle]

How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?

In the new earth there will be a sundown and sunrise every day. While the New Jerusalem has no need of a sun or moon, that doesn't mean that there is no sun or moon.

Isaiah 30:26  Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

See MH 506; 8T 42.

Mine was a question, not a statement.
We will first, both males and females, spend a 1,000 years in heaven, before the New Earth emerges as our abode.

Our solar system shows us that there is no other planet in our system where there is a 24-hour day. My question was based on this fact, and had nothing to do with the New Earth, where we should be back on a 24-hour system, since it is the same planet.

My mistake. Some use the terms new earth and heaven interchangeably, even though there is a difference.

The entire millennium is a Sabbath of sorts.

One could also ask the same question regarding how long the 1000 years will be since no other planet has a year as long or as short as ours. Some things we just aren't told.

[Gregory]

Johann said:

I was just looking at a map of  the new international date line. It is quite far from being a straight line since it wriggles in between islands of the Pacific, seemingly depending on where they have the greatest trade interests.

Correct.

This is the reason that we have problems.  Different people, who wish to follow the direction of God, have different perspectives on what one should do in relation to this issue.

I attend a SDA church which has for years occasionally sent members to a Padific island for short term visits, where this is an issue.  And, we have had Island church leadership visit our congregation.  Our members come back with an understanding of this issue.  Yet, even in our circumstances I cannot say that the majority of the membership knows or understands this question.

It has been stated that the General Conference has not ruled on this issue.  Based upon the diversity that exists, I would have to say that God seemingly has not ruled.  For me personally, I am convinced and settled in my mind as to what I should do in such a situation.  But, not everyone agrees wilth me. 

[Dedication]

The issue I believe is plain in scripture.
Scripture places the Sabbath between the "preparation day" and the "resurrection day".  It's spelled out in several of the gospels.
Christ rested from His work of creating on the seventh day.  (Gen. 2:2-3 cf John 1:3)
Christ rested from His work of saving mankind on the seventh day. (Matt. 28:1)

The first day has been known as Sunday, even in the first centurary AD.  The counterfeit Sabbath was introduced already in the early centuries based --
On the first day upon which Christ rose from the dead etc.

The issue in scripture is who do we worship?   The God Who gave the commandments and created the world.
Or the beast who thinks to change times and laws?

The day that is honored and recognized as the day that Christ arose  by the whole community -- is the first day of the week, not the seventh.
In the Pacific Islands -- this Sunday was brought to them long before any Adventists were around.   They were all in the eastern hemisphere,  before "commercial interests" caused confusion of days there.   

It's American commercial interests that pulled them over to the American side -- why even the Philippeans were among the first to be pulled over to the American side till everyone realized how silly that was. 
Samoa had two 4ths of July in 1892 to pull them over to the American side, till they decided to go back in 2011. 
The Cook Islands had two Christmases one year, to get them on the American side.

The question is -- where do we get the idea that Greenwich England is the middle of God's earth?  That is purely a "commercial decision" made by a group of men in 1884 which by purely default, not legislation, placed the dateline at 180th.   Is that where the prime meridian (line 0) is ordained to be? 



 

[Dedication]

There is a Bible Study in one of our old church papers on this matter.

THE BIBLE ECHO, VOL. 17, No. 12, March 17, 1902.
THE DAY LINE.—No. 1
By N. A. D.

(I don't know who the author N.A.D. was, but it was not the North American Division)

"God made the earth, and as He is not the author of confusion we may reasonably expect that He has made ample provision for this contingency.

And it will be seen by reference to the Scriptures last quoted that He, as a matter of fact, has done so. He has not defined or surveyed any line from north to south and called it "degree number this or that." God does not work that way. In commanding the Sabbath He leaves many details as to what may or may not be done on that day open questions to be settled by the individual conscience. This is indeed true of every precept. God states the principle. The reasoning power, which He has bestowed upon each person, must supply the rest.

Nevertheless the location of the day-line has been quite explicitly stated. As He told Job, God, and not man, has commanded the morning and caused the day-spring, or beginning, to know its place that it might take hold of, or be at the ends of the earth (Hebrew "habitable land"). In passing it is worthy of remark that the punctuation of the English Bible is not found in the original. The correct punctuation here would probably place the interrogation point after "earth." The last clause of this verse obviously belongs to the next. Job 38 : 12-13.

In the 65th Psalm a precise statement is made concerning this matter.
In the fifth verse we are told, in the parallelism of Hebrew poetry, that God is the confidence of all the ends of the earth ("habitable land," that is, .the ends of the continent David lived on and referred to), of them that are afar upon the sea. The Hebrew word here translated end is defined by the best authorities as meaning "limit., end, edge, uttermost part," and comes from a root that means "brink, brim, edge," all of which is consistent with the facts as we will presently show.,

In the 8th verse we learn that the people living at this place are afraid at God's tokens. There God makes the outgoings, or beginning, of morning and evening to rejoice. Now let us take a globe or a map and apply this Scripture. Here in Palestine is where David lived. Let us go towards the dayspring or sunrising, or east to find the uttermost part of the habitable land. At last we reach the ocean. We follow the indentations of the coast-line back and forth until we have reached its most eastern point. Here it is, in the extremity of Asia, the tip of Siberia. There the day begins.

This agrees with J.N.Andrews conclusions that the dayline runs s through the Bering Straits and straight down -- the  extreme tip of the Asian continent in Siberia marking the place where the day begins.
This is not the 180th  -- but closer to the 168w longitude.

Many of the zig zags would disappear -- except Hawaii (and the mostly uninhabited Alaskan Islands) would then demand a zag to stay in the American time zone.  I wonder if Adventists in Hawaii would worship on Friday if that would of been the case?   Somehow I kind doubt it.

[SDAminister]

The issue I believe is plain in scripture.
Scripture places the Sabbath between the "preparation day" and the "resurrection day".  It's spelled out in several of the gospels.
Christ rested from His work of creating on the seventh day.  (Gen. 2:2-3 cf John 1:3)
Christ rested from His work of saving mankind on the seventh day. (Matt. 28:1)

The first day has been known as Sunday, even in the first centurary AD.  The counterfeit Sabbath was introduced already in the early centuries based --
On the first day upon which Christ rose from the dead etc.

The issue in scripture is who do we worship?   The God Who gave the commandments and created the world.
Or the beast who thinks to change times and laws?

The day that is honored and recognized as the day that Christ arose  by the whole community -- is the first day of the week, not the seventh.
In the Pacific Islands -- this Sunday was brought to them long before any Adventists were around.   They were all in the eastern hemisphere,  before "commercial interests" caused confusion of days there.   

It's American commercial interests that pulled them over to the American side -- why even the Philippeans were among the first to be pulled over to the American side till everyone realized how silly that was. 
Samoa had two 4ths of July in 1892 to pull them over to the American side, till they decided to go back in 2011. 
The Cook Islands had two Christmases one year, to get them on the American side.

The question is -- where do we get the idea that Greenwich England is the middle of God's earth?  That is purely a "commercial decision" made by a group of men in 1884 which by purely default, not legislation, placed the dateline at 180th.   Is that where the prime meridian (line 0) is ordained to be? 



 

The dateline has nothing to do with the prime meridian being in Greenwich, England.

[SDAminister]

There is a Bible Study in one of our old church papers on this matter.

THE BIBLE ECHO, VOL. 17, No. 12, March 17, 1902.
THE DAY LINE.—No. 1
By N. A. D.

(I don't know who the author N.A.D. was, but it was not the North American Division)

"God made the earth, and as He is not the author of confusion we may reasonably expect that He has made ample provision for this contingency.

And it will be seen by reference to the Scriptures last quoted that He, as a matter of fact, has done so. He has not defined or surveyed any line from north to south and called it "degree number this or that." God does not work that way. In commanding the Sabbath He leaves many details as to what may or may not be done on that day open questions to be settled by the individual conscience. This is indeed true of every precept. God states the principle. The reasoning power, which He has bestowed upon each person, must supply the rest.

Nevertheless the location of the day-line has been quite explicitly stated. As He told Job, God, and not man, has commanded the morning and caused the day-spring, or beginning, to know its place that it might take hold of, or be at the ends of the earth (Hebrew "habitable land"). In passing it is worthy of remark that the punctuation of the English Bible is not found in the original. The correct punctuation here would probably place the interrogation point after "earth." The last clause of this verse obviously belongs to the next. Job 38 : 12-13.

In the 65th Psalm a precise statement is made concerning this matter.
In the fifth verse we are told, in the parallelism of Hebrew poetry, that God is the confidence of all the ends of the earth ("habitable land," that is, .the ends of the continent David lived on and referred to), of them that are afar upon the sea. The Hebrew word here translated end is defined by the best authorities as meaning "limit., end, edge, uttermost part," and comes from a root that means "brink, brim, edge," all of which is consistent with the facts as we will presently show.,

In the 8th verse we learn that the people living at this place are afraid at God's tokens. There God makes the outgoings, or beginning, of morning and evening to rejoice. Now let us take a globe or a map and apply this Scripture. Here in Palestine is where David lived. Let us go towards the dayspring or sunrising, or east to find the uttermost part of the habitable land. At last we reach the ocean. We follow the indentations of the coast-line back and forth until we have reached its most eastern point. Here it is, in the extremity of Asia, the tip of Siberia. There the day begins.

This agrees with J.N.Andrews conclusions that the dayline runs s through the Bering Straits and straight down -- the  extreme tip of the Asian continent in Siberia marking the place where the day begins.
This is not the 180th  -- but closer to the 168w longitude.

Many of the zig zags would disappear -- except Hawaii (and the mostly uninhabited Alaskan Islands) would then demand a zag to stay in the American time zone.  I wonder if Adventists in Hawaii would worship on Friday if that would of been the case?   Somehow I kind doubt it.

Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.

[Dedication]

Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.

You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.

 

The dateline has nothing to do with the prime meridian being in Greenwich, England.

Only partially right.   From Greenwich England  (line 0) the longitudes are counted to the 180th,  both to the east and to the west. The globe being divided into 360 degrees -- 180 is exactly half way around the world from Greenwich, and thus has become the DEFAULT, though not the actual dateline.
It's when Greenwich England was chosen as the Prime Meridian in 1884, that all this mess in the Pacific started, with some wanting the 180th to be the official dateline. 
Yet it was never declared official -- countries in the area were left to chose which side of the date line they would be on.
Had these Islands been left alone, they would all have simply continued to be in the eastern hemisphere where they were in the first place.

[SDAminister]

Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.

You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.

 

You had mentioned it in the context of the Bering Strait, not being opposite Jerusalem.