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[Dedication]

I will suggest thaqt this is one of those issues that is between us and the leading of God.

The reason I'm concerned about this issue is because it has been handed down from the church leadership in the Pacific Islands.  It is not simply a personal issue between individuals and God.

There are many people in the Islands of  Samoa who are basically locked out of the Seventh-day Adventist Churches.  They are not allowed to worship in the Seventh-day Adventist Churches on Saturday.  So they have been finding other places to worship. (Often outside)     In other words -- those who believe the seventh day is from Friday sunset  to Saturday sunset according to scripture are no longer treated like members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 

Yes, I agree the established IDL is the guide as to where the new day begins.
So why do Adventists NOT accept the established IDL?
 
A one time "cross over" did not change the week.   That  cross over  will soon be forgotten by everyone.     
The day after their so called Sabbath is MONDAY in all that Monday means.  Saturday they go play baseball or basketball, it's still considered the "weekend"  but now Saturday is like any secular person regards a Saturday -- The week hasn't changed, but the Seventh-day Adventist churches now close on Saturday and open on Sunday right along with the Catholics, the Methodists and other denominations. 

But to bring in a new prespective --  let's consider Tonga (a group of Island just south of Samoa)

Tonga has from the earliest introduction of Christianity about 100 years before Adventist missions arrived, held Sunday as Sunday in the eastern hemisphere.   Tongan politics was pretty much influenced by the Weslyan missionaries who were into the politics as well as religion.  The Weslyans and Catholics, and British Missionaries all kept Sunday -- the same as most protestants and all Catholics in Australia and New Zealand.   
There has been NO IDL change in Tonga in all those years.  Protestant and Catholic missionaries arrived in Tonga and kept Sunday according to the Eastern Hemisphere.   Nearly 100 years later Adventists arrived from America and kept Sunday right with them, claiming it was really Saturday, and are still doing so today.

Tonga set the precedent -- and slowly the Islands are all being led into Sunday worship, simply because Adventists refuse to acknowledge that the IDL is set by the Island groups not by an arbitrary line that isn't taught by scripture or set by governments. 

When Sunday laws come to America how are people in America who support Sunday keeping in these Islands going to answer?
If the authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church can call Sunday the Sabbath and enforce it on their members in one area, why not listen to the authority of Protestant and Catholic call for UNITY against evil and uphold Sunday as the Sabbath to bring people back to God in America?
 

[Gregory]

Ulicis, the answers are not easyi.  My position is ismply,: Do what you think God asks, as stated in the Bible.

As to some of the questions in the future, God will lead when asn if those situations arise.

Perhaps a partial answer to some question is:  The Bible does not teach against going to a worshilp service on the 1st day of the week.  What the Bible teaches is  keeping an entire 24 hour day, the 7th day of the week, in the manner tht God asked.  One can have a worshilp service on any day of the week.  EGW wrote as to how SDAS could use Sunday laws for evangelism.

[Johann]

I will suggest thaqt this is one of those issues that is between us and the leading of God.

The reason I'm concerned about this issue is because it has been handed down from the church leadership in the Pacific Islands.  It is not simply a personal issue between individuals and God.

There are many people in the Islands of  Samoa who are basically locked out of the Seventh-day Adventist Churches.  They are not allowed to worship in the Seventh-day Adventist Churches on Saturday.  So they have been finding other places to worship. (Often outside)     In other words -- those who believe the seventh day is from Friday sunset  to Saturday sunset according to scripture are no longer treated like members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 

Yes, I agree the established IDL is the guide as to where the new day begins.
So why do Adventists NOT accept the established IDL?
 
A one time "cross over" did not change the week.   That  cross over  will soon be forgotten by everyone.     
The day after their so called Sabbath is MONDAY in all that Monday means.  Saturday they go play baseball or basketball, it's still considered the "weekend"  but now Saturday is like any secular person regards a Saturday -- The week hasn't changed, but the Seventh-day Adventist churches now close on Saturday and open on Sunday right along with the Catholics, the Methodists and other denominations. 

But to bring in a new prespective --  let's consider Tonga (a group of Island just south of Samoa)

Tonga has from the earliest introduction of Christianity about 100 years before Adventist missions arrived, held Sunday as Sunday in the eastern hemisphere.   Tongan politics was pretty much influenced by the Weslyan missionaries who were into the politics as well as religion.  The Weslyans and Catholics, and British Missionaries all kept Sunday -- the same as most protestants and all Catholics in Australia and New Zealand.   
There has been NO IDL change in Tonga in all those years.  Protestant and Catholic missionaries arrived in Tonga and kept Sunday according to the Eastern Hemisphere.   Nearly 100 years later Adventists arrived from America and kept Sunday right with them, claiming it was really Saturday, and are still doing so today.

Tonga set the precedent -- and slowly the Islands are all being led into Sunday worship, simply because Adventists refuse to acknowledge that the IDL is set by the Island groups not by an arbitrary line that isn't taught by scripture or set by governments. 

When Sunday laws come to America how are people in America who support Sunday keeping in these Islands going to answer?
If the authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church can call Sunday the Sabbath and enforce it on their members in one area, why not listen to the authority of Protestant and Catholic call for UNITY against evil and uphold Sunday as the Sabbath to bring people back to God in America?
 

Much prayer is needed.

 

[Bob Pickle]

I suppose if all of us travel around the globe in one direction, we could arrive back at this spot and keep what to us is still the seventh day, while everyone else is calling that same day Sunday.

Or we could travel the other direction and end up keeping Friday.

If we traveled around the world twice in two years in one direction, we could end up keeping Monday or Thursday.

Gregory, I don't such reasoning is sound.

[Gregory]

Bob, you are correct.  Your illustration is not rational and it would not happen as long as you came back to the same spot.

If you left on Thursday morning (at 10 minutes after midnight), traveled for exactly 23 hours, returned to the same spot, it would still be Thursday (at 10 minutes after 11 PM) on the day you returned.

[Dedication]

Actually, if you started in New Zealand and boarded a plane on Friday, two hours before sunset and flew west along approximately the same latitude for exactly 24 hours you would be following the sun and it would be two (or one) hours before sunset all the way.  Every timezone you crossed you would set your watch back one hour again making it two hours till sunset.  Since Sabbath begins at the setting sun -- the Sabbath would not begin for you on your whole journey.  The sun would not set for you on your whole 24 hour journey.

When you arrived back in New Zealand -- yes -- YOUR WATCH would say it was exactly the same time as when you left -- still two hours before sunset.  According to your watch it would say it's still Friday.    BUT 24 hours have passed.  And everyone in New Zealand would tell you it's now Saturday one hour before sundown.
But you still haven't experienced the Friday sunset -- so yes Bob is correct in saying that person could argue that Sabbath was just starting, while in reality it was ending.   

[SDAminister]

Why not choose a point between the continents of Asia and America and have that be the line? Seems logical to me.

[Gregory]

The establishment of the IDL is arbitrary and totally lacking in Biblical support.  that is the reason that some of the differences in opinon exist within the SDA Church.  The IDL is simply of human origon.

[Gregory]

I have a better question.l

Two identical twiln brothers are adults here on Earth and both are aged 35.  One is and astronaut who taks a space flight into outer space which causes him to return to Earth at a time when the Earth-bound brother is now 45 years old.  How old will the astronaut be?  No he will not be 45.   He will be younger.  Time slowed.  See Quantumn Mechanics.

[SDAminister]

The establishment of the IDL is arbitrary and totally lacking in Biblical support.  that is the reason that some of the differences in opinon exist within the SDA Church.  The IDL is simply of human origon.

Are there places on the earth where it is impossible to keep or know the Sabbath?

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, you are correct.  Your illustration is not rational and it would not happen as long as you came back to the same spot.

If you left on Thursday morning (at 10 minutes after midnight), traveled for exactly 23 hours, returned to the same spot, it would still be Thursday (at 10 minutes after 11 PM) on the day you returned.

I think you misunderstood my point, but Ulicia did get it. It is a point that Odom and/or Andrews made in his/their books, from what I recall.

In the above post, you appear to be agreeing with Ulicia's position.

Since the day begins and ends with sunset, then the 7th day begins and ends with sunset. If the 7th day is always my 7th day regardless of what is the 7th day for everyone around me, then if I travel by boat and car around the world, when I arrive back at where I started, my 7th day will be one day earlier or later than everyone else's. And each time I make the same trip, my 7th day will get out of sync an additional day.

Following this reasoning, if two twins aged 20 go opposite directions around the globe 365 times in one solar year, one twin will be aged 22 and the other will still be 20 without having gotten older even one single day. A way of increasing longevity to close to twice what it is today? A way of never growing older? Or evidence that we cannot calculate which day of the week it is without some sort of reference to those around us?

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

And just what is a dateline? And why is it even needed? After all, when the local time hits midnight we have the next date and computers worldwide flip the date in each timezone individually.

For the Seventh-day Adventist, on Friday sundown, it is Sabbath until Saturday sundown.

The dateline is a mere contrivance, antiquated at best, as world financial markets have made it virtually irrelevant. With the help of GPS ships clocks change from zone to zone and Greenwich mean time and the Dateline hold little relevance to shipping or financial transactions anymore.

[Johann]

So it should be possible to travel into space and come back yesterday?

[Dedication]

Most of the conversation shows the absolute necessity of the dateline.
Reality demands it.

The person who travels westward around the world following the sun, making the complete circuit in exactly one day,  appears not to lose any time because he sets his clock back one hour at every time zone, thus it's always the same time -- time appears as if it isn't advancing.   
If he leaves New Zealand at 6:00 a.m. sunrise Wednesday morning, it's still 6:00 a.m. sunrise Wednesday morning when he gets to England even though he has travelled for about 11 hours.

The reality is that 11 hours have passed, the illusion is that time stood still because he is keeping pace with the sun as it travels around the world.
When he arrives back to New Zealand having circled the earth,  it's still 6:00 a.m. and still sunrise.   If it weren't for the dateline in the Pacific Ocean, and simply letting his experience in the sun determine if a day has passed,  there would be no reason for him to think it wasn't still 6:00 a.m Wednesday morning.

BUT the reality is that he has experienced a full day.   The people in New Zealand have experienced a full day. And it is now sunrise Thursday morning.

He didn't stay a day younger by doing this.   That's simply an illusion.

The dateline is absolutely necessary.  The only thing that is arbitrary is the point in the Pacific Ocean where it is crossed.


But the REALIT 

[Dedication]

Now let's say you take 24 days to travel around the world westward starting from New Zealand at 6:00 a.m. on a Monday morning.  By taking 24 days,  you average traveling through one time zone everyday thus you would turn your clock back one hour every day.  Through your whole trip you would experience 24 days each being only 23 hours long.  It doesn't seem like a big deal (23 hour days) until you get back to New Zealand and find out you are one day late.  You lost 24 hours -- a whole day -- and your reckoning of time is one day behind the local count.

Are you one day younger than the person who stayed in New Zealand?  No of course not.
It simply shows that a dateline is absolutely necessary in reckoning time on a round world.