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[Dedication]

Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.

You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.

 

You had mentioned it in the context of the Bering Strait, not being opposite Jerusalem.

Yes, I know, I'm sorry for not being more specific (happens after a day's work)  I was mixing two "possibities"  both of which I've mentioned earlier but not in the post you read.    Though I still wonder if the default dateline had fallen to the west of Hawaii, and America had zagged the dateline to get Hawaii back into American time zone, would Adventists there be keeping Friday?   In fact, do we see any Adventist churches where the dateline zags west of the 180th where Adventists keep Friday?
Or is it only when the dateline zigs east of the dateline that Adventists keep Sunday?

And though you and I agree the 180th is not the official dateline, yet I would say 90% of the arguments for keeping Sunday in those Islands rests on the fact that the dateline zigs east of the 180th.

[Dedication]

I was just looking at a map of  the new international date line. It is quite far from being a straight line since it wriggles in between islands of the Pacific, seemingly depending on where they have the greatest trade interests.
Can we base our Sabbath celebration on commercial interests?

Is it just "commercial interests" or is it the whole sense of where they really belong?

Consider these Islands in the Pacific.

Where does the Adventist Church Place them?
Are they in the American Division?   

Or are they in the South Pacific Division?
Where is the Seventh-day Adventist headquarters that oversees these Islands?

The South Pacific Division is one of 13 world divisions of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in the organisation of the church. It comprises 18 countries including Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and the islands of the South Pacific.

It is made up of four regional offices.
They are the Australian Union Conference (headquarters in Melbourne),
New Zealand Pacific Union Conference (headquarters in Auckland),
Papua New Guinea Union Mission (headquarters in Lae) and
Trans-Pacific Union Mission (headquarters in Suva, Fiji).

The head office of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the South Pacific is in Wahroonga, New South Wales, Australia

So the head office is in Australia
Every one of the Union offices are in the eastern hemisphere.  They are all keeping the Sabbath on Saturday.

The Pacific Islands -- Tonga and Samoa and others are part of the South Pacific Union.
Why shouldn't they keep the same Sabbath on Saturday?



If even the church has grouped these Islands with Australia and New Zealand
why would anyone think it strange that that is where they belong?

[SDAminister]

Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.

You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.

 

You had mentioned it in the context of the Bering Strait, not being opposite Jerusalem.

Yes, I know, I'm sorry for not being more specific (happens after a day's work)  I was mixing two "possibities"  both of which I've mentioned earlier but not in the post you read.    Though I still wonder if the default dateline had fallen to the west of Hawaii, and America had zagged the dateline to get Hawaii back into American time zone, would Adventists there be keeping Friday?   In fact, do we see any Adventist churches where the dateline zags west of the 180th where Adventists keep Friday?
Or is it only when the dateline zigs east of the dateline that Adventists keep Sunday?

And though you and I agree the 180th is not the official dateline, yet I would say 90% of the arguments for keeping Sunday in those Islands rests on the fact that the dateline zigs east of the 180th.

I'm confused. You state "if the default dateline had fallen to the west of Hawaii..."  The default dateline does now lie west of Hawaii. Did you mean east of Hawaii?

[Dedication]

............WEST -- HAWAII -- EAST
Eastern hemisphere --  western hemisphere

Yes, the 180th lies west of Hawaii
Yes,  it's confusing.   I always have to picture  West and East in my mind (guess I'm a visual person), because the eastern hemisphere is west from Hawaii, and the western hemisphere is east of Hawaii.   And for me (a Canadian) to go to the east of the dateline I would have to go west!  There did I get it right?  It's easier simply to say eastern hemisphere, and western hemisphere.

Guess I need more sleep -- running a Vacation Bible School and working on a job and then trying to unwind by trying to keep west and east straight on the dateline... -- but I still wonder if Adventists  would have kept Friday if the default dateline put them in the eastern hemisphere and the "agreed upon" dateline pulled them back into the western hemisphere.   Somehow I don't think so.
Nor do I know of any Adventists churches where this reverse situation has them worshipping on Friday.  But a lot of them have used the 180th to worship on Sunday.

The bottom line for me is --- Sunday is the first day of the week.  It is recognized by all the churches as the day of the week when the  resurrection of Christ took place.   It is recognized by all governments as Sunday.  Thus it is Sunday and not Sabbath the seventh day, even if they did cross the dateline and experienced ONE six day week.

The  Bible is plain that the Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, which is known as Saturday. 

 

[Gregory]

Ulilcia said:

The  Bible is plain that the Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, which is known as Saturday.

You were correct when you stated that this situation is complicated and hard to understand.  I consider that I understand it.  Yet, in this discussion I find myself making errors.  I was cought in a major error.  What is not known is that In my posts I caught myself making other errors which I was able to remove before they were posted. 

I have continued to post on this issue because I consider it to be a very important issue, as do those who disagree with my position.  LIn short, I believe that all parties to t his discussion are honest people who want to do what God and theBible want them to do.

My understanding is that we are asked to keep the 7th day in a weekly cycle that can be traced back to the time of Christ and wass the day that Christ kept.  In most of the world, that dayisknown in english as 'Saturday.  However,, I believe that in some parts of the Pacific Ocean, due teo changes in the DAte  Line, that day has become known in english as Sunday.  Therefore, I beleive that is the day that should be kept, in those Pacific Islalnds.

From this perspective, I Do not agtree with your statement that I have quoted above, as it applies to those Pacific Islands.

This is the issue that edivides sthe SDA Chruch:  Do we keep the same 7th day of the weekly cycle that Christ kept?  Or, to we keep a different day that is the day before the day that other Protestants keep and is called Sunday?

 You are intelligent.  I Respect your thinking.  You state lyour position well.  YOu do so from a perspective of wanting to follow God' leading and the Bible.  I simply have a different undrstanding.

Blessings on you.

[Bob Pickle]

This is the issue that edivides sthe SDA Chruch:  Do we keep the same 7th day of the weekly cycle that Christ kept?  Or, to we keep a different day that is the day before the day that other Protestants keep and is called Sunday?

If we say that the former is correct, then we still have to decide what to do at the point in the Pacific Ocean where the beginning and the end of the day meets. How do we determine which day is the 7th day?

[Gregory]

And you have raised a valid  question for which I do not believe there is a clear Biblical answer.

[Dedication]

Ulicia said:

The  Bible is plain that the Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, which is known as Saturday.

My understanding is that we are asked to keep the 7th day in a weekly cycle that can be traced back to the time of Christ and was the day that Christ kept.  In most of the world, that dayisknown in english as 'Saturday.  However,, I believe that in some parts of the Pacific Ocean, due to changes in the DAte  Line, that day has become known in english as Sunday.  Therefore, I beleive that is the day that should be kept, in those Pacific Islands.

From this perspective, I Do not agree with your statement that I have quoted above, as it applies to those Pacific Islands.

This is the issue that divides the SDA Chruch:  Do we keep the same 7th day of the weekly cycle that Christ kept?  Or, to we keep a different day that is the day before the day that other Protestants keep and is called Sunday?

 You are intelligent.  I Respect your thinking.  You state your position well.  YOu do so from a perspective of wanting to follow God' leading and the Bible.  I simply have a different understanding.

Blessings on you.

Thank-you for your kind words.
What I have a hard time understanding is why you think "Sunday" on these Islands, is the day Christ kept?
If the "dayspring" according to the Bible is the "edge" of the land.  That would place the dateline at the furtherest eastern tip of the great land mass which includes Palestine where Christ lived and taught.   That furthest tip would be Siberia.  If we draw a straight line down from this tip, it puts the Islands into the eastern hemisphere.   
Also these Islands were in the eastern hemisphere before 1884 when the Greenwich Prime meridian was chosen that caused some of them (but never Tonga) to switch to the western hemisphere.
Yet, now Samoa simply moved back where they were before.  Tonga has never switched sides.  Yet both these groups of Islands now worship on Sunday. 
What is the rational that Sunday in these Islands,  is the day Christ kept?

   

[Dedication]

UPDATE

I mentioned earlier that August 2 the SPD had a meeting dealing with the Sabbath Samoan issue.
At present there is still no official report.

But what has come out is encouraging to the Sabbath Keepers in Samoa, as apparently no decision was reached.    Apparently the need that the Sabbath keepers (those regarding Saturday as the 7th day) should have a hearing, was considered.

Hopefully an official report will soon be available as right now details are basically "hear-say".

Keep praying that God's will be done.

[Gregory]

Ulicia:  It appears to me  that the root of our difference lies in the IDL.  You appear to have derived a place for the  beginning   time (what the secular world calls the INternational Date Line.) somewhere on earth based upon your understanding of what the Bible says.  In doing so, you are attempting to follow God and the Bible.

I am not convinced that one can determine a date line (the beginning of time) on the basis of a Biblical text.  Part of such thinking is based upon unknown changes that may have taken place on Earth at the Flood.  Yes, I think I know what your response might be.  But, for a number of reasons, I am simply not convinced that the Bible gives us such informaiton.

As that is my personal positon, I am essentially saying that God and the Bible do not address this issue.  So, I simply accept the IDL as it would go in a straight line (isn't it on the 180th meridian,  you can correct me if I am wrong).  But, I require it to go in a straight line and not wander around as it does in  certain of the Pacific Islands.

Is this issue important.  Yes, I believe that there are aspects of this issue that are very important.  That is why I have posted so much on it.  But, I believe that there are aspects that are not clear.  If God has allowed some aspects to be unclear, perhaps those are not as important as others.  In any case, I can consider those who differ with me to be honestly attempting to follow God and the Bilble.

[SDAminister]

Anybody out there believe that Jesus Christ kept a different day of the week than David, Nehemiah, Moses, Noah, or Adam?

[Gregory]

No.

But, while we can trace it back to the time of Christ, but we can not trace it back to Adam.

[Murcielago]

No.

But, while we can trace it back to the time of Christ, but we can not trace it back to Adam.

Can we trace it back to pre-Moses times?

[Dedication]

The controversy began when Greenwich was declared the center of the world.  The islands were pulled out of their "natural" time zones and aligned with a contenant far to the east of them.


The question of a definite seventh day is not in question.   Jesus kept that seventh-day.  It has been brought down to our time by the Jewish race, just as Sunday, the counterfeit "sabbath" has been brought down to us by the catholic church with it's celebration of Christ's resurrection day.  Christ rose on the first day of the week, not the seventh.  This counting of time is accepted around the world.

Greenwich England as the "center" of the earth as the line "0" is a relative modern invention necessitated because of increased world travel and commerce.   Since a circle or globe has 360 decrees, half of that is 180 decrees.   So longitudes were counted both east and west of Greenwich,  till both sides came to 180 decrees.  Of course the 180th NOW marked the exact opposite to line 0 which ran through Greenwich.   This was agreed upon in 1884.

Now the issue resolves around whether or not people believe this action in 1884 was a divine imperative or simply a human action.   And we also need to remember that the "default" line has been the 180th, BUT the actual DATELINE has never been a straight line following the 180th.   It has always zig zagged.


   
So the question is --does our allegiance to God require honoring the 180th meridian even if it means worshipping on the day recognized as the Sun's day?   Or is our allegiance to God demonstrated by adhering  to the day  known around the world as the closing day of Creation when the Creator  rested from His work of creating mankind, as well as the day He rested in the tomb from His work of saving mankind?
 

Even Adventists, though they instituted Sunday worship in Tonga from the start, were not totally  consistant in demanding all churches east of the 180th but west of the actual dateline keep Sunday.  Fiji straddles the 180th meridian, it's main Islands lie west of it, but several smaller Islands are east of the 180th.  Yet Adventists (rightly in my opinion) all keep time according to the estern hemisphere. 

   If this picture uploads you will be able to see the red lines indicating present day Prime and default meridian.
A Black line where several Bible scholars (including J.N..Andrews) placed the Dateline
A yellow line showing where the meridian and Datline would be if Jerusalem were chosen as the middle of the earth.
   

[Dedication]

To get a glimpse of the situation in Samoa --

Click on the link to view the TV item (youtube) featuring STM President interview and his view on Sunday keeping,  and also a segment featuring the Lighthouse group who are keeping Sabbath on Saturday and  worshipping under the tents:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNFY9L25PD8&feature=youtu.be