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[christian]

I find it interesting that there are so many that think it is their responsibility to change the churches beliefs. I have to ask the question do these individuals feel that the church is their means of salvation instead of Jesus? They are so at odds with the church but they cannot leave. Instead, it is my belief, they seek to change the foundational stones of the church. They feign to have this burning desire for the spreading of the Gospel when secretly inside they hate the restrictions the church puts on them. They want everything in the church to fall in line with the world. Like the Jews of old they feel they are dam if they leave the church and so they instead try and frame the church to fit their preset agenda. It is obvious to the perceptive eyes that the spiritual condition of the church is getting worse not better. This head long descent to the world is simply destroying the Fathers House. I have lamented many a time that the Prodigal son would no longer have a house to return to and Jesus could not have used that parable in today's times. The emphasis is on the external things and the Spiritual things are left to die. I can remember the fasting and praying that was an intricate part of the churches structure. Where is the fervour for a return to a church that mirrors the church of old in its connection to God? Now the church is being steered by imposter's who's main goal is to modernize the church. I can tell you unapologetic that what we need now is men and women to follow the truth we presently have and the rest would take care of itself. The worldly music, the fascination with movies, the neglect of the health message have all contributed to a worldliness that has made the House of God a den for the ALMOST SAVED. God has never asked for an church that is all inclusive, but rather for a church that can draw men and women to God and change the heart and create a new spirit. The Church is not the means for salvation Jesus is. The bible says there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death. ---I can hear the argument of many being the same as Eve in the Garden, the tree looks good and like every other tree. God has set a standard for men and women. God has a standard for salvation and it is the Holy Spirit. No schemes by men outside the will of God even if they seem reasonable will prosper for salvation's sake. Changing the principles of the church will not save men only Jesus can do that.

[Johann]

God wants minute-men. He will have men who, when important decisions are to be made, are as true as the needle to the pole; men whose special and personal interests are swallowed up, as were our Saviour’s, in the one great general interest for the salvation of souls. Satan plays upon the human mind wherever a chance has been left for him to do so; and he seizes upon the very time and place where he can do the most service to himself, and the greatest injury to the cause of God. A neglect to do what we might do, and what God requires us to do in his cause, is a sin which cannot be palliated with excuses of circumstances or conditions; for Jesus has made provision for all in every emergency.—Testimonies for the Church 3:505. {GW92 377.2}

[SDAminister]

Christian,
Are you saying that the church has no role in the salvation of the lost in this world?

SDAminister

[christian]

Christian,
Are you saying that the church has no role in the salvation of the lost in this world?

SDAminister

That is exactly what I am saying. To long people have believed that the church has a role in the salvation of men when in fact it does not. It only has a role in bringing people to the the one that gives salvation. In the church there is no inherent power outside the one Christ Jesus. The Jews in their day thought that because they processed the oracles of the savior they held salvation for others in their hands. The Jews, Priest and scholars in the end killed the one that truly was salvation. Now if you want to interpret the part they paid in the killing of Jesus as a role in salvation we will agree. However the plan of salvation in totally Gods doing and prerogative. The Church's primary function is to give the Gospel as Jesus required and designed and leaving the salvation of men to the Savior.

[christian]

Christian,
Are you saying that the church has no role in the salvation of the lost in this world?

SDAminister

Here is the most scary part of the thinking that the church is salvation. When the church makes rules or dogma then it can in essence dam those that do not follow because they become the salvation of men. So in the end it, the church can change their stand and uphold Sunday or compel people to worship on Sunday believing they have that power vested, because they are salvation. There will be many that rejected the savior because of the church. The Church has to be very careful because whereas they cannot save anyone they can cause many to be lost.

[SDAminister]

Christian,
Are you saying that the church has no role in the salvation of the lost in this world?

SDAminister

That is exactly what I am saying. To long people have believed that the church has a role in the salvation of men when in fact it does not. It only has a role in bringing people to the the one that gives salvation. In the church there is no inherent power outside the one Christ Jesus. The Jews in their day thought that because they processed the oracles of the savior they held salvation for others in their hands. The Jews, Priest and scholars in the end killed the one that truly was salvation. Now if you want to interpret the part they paid in the killing of Jesus as a role in salvation we will agree. However the plan of salvation in totally Gods doing and prerogative. The Church's primary function is to give the Gospel as Jesus required and designed and leaving the salvation of men to the Savior.

I'm not sure which, either you have a distorted view of what the church is; what salvation is; or who Jesus is. Too many texts plainly refute what you are saying. One cannot be saved and not be a member of the church. The church is the body of Christ. 1 Cor 12. God said "So send I you". If we are "saved" and God sends us to others, then if we refuse are we not lost? And yet, God only sends church members to the lost to save them!

[christian]

Christian,
Are you saying that the church has no role in the salvation of the lost in this world?

SDAminister

That is exactly what I am saying. To long people have believed that the church has a role in the salvation of men when in fact it does not. It only has a role in bringing people to the the one that gives salvation. In the church there is no inherent power outside the one Christ Jesus. The Jews in their day thought that because they processed the oracles of the savior they held salvation for others in their hands. The Jews, Priest and scholars in the end killed the one that truly was salvation. Now if you want to interpret the part they paid in the killing of Jesus as a role in salvation we will agree. However the plan of salvation in totally Gods doing and prerogative. The Church's primary function is to give the Gospel as Jesus required and designed and leaving the salvation of men to the Savior.

I'm not sure which, either you have a distorted view of what the church is; what salvation is; or who Jesus is. Too many texts plainly refute what you are saying. One cannot be saved and not be a member of the church. The church is the body of Christ. 1 Cor 12. God said "So send I you". If we are "saved" and God sends us to others, then if we refuse are we not lost? And yet, God only sends church members to the lost to save them!

What is your definition of the church? Do you believe you have to be an baptise SDA to be in the church of God? Will only those who are members of the organized church be saved. And, this is kinda funny with my sense of humor. If God only sends church members (SDA organization) to save people we have millions I mean billions that have never heard of SDA, are they all hopelessly lost? I think you know the difference between the organization which is what I am referring to and the church at large. Obviously, the wheat and the tare grow together and the bible states that the tare in the organize church were sown by the enemy and are not his (however they are part of the organized church). Ellen White would say that two groups would form in the organized church and thus we see that happening right before our eyes. The scribes and Pharisees were not his children but the children of the devil.

[Gregory]

To long people have believed that the church has a role in the salvation of men when in fact it does not. It only has a role in bringing people to the the one that gives salvation. In the church there is no inherent power outside the one Christ Jesus.

When you state it that way, you are correct.  Salvation is centered in Christ. Salvation was accomplished/provided by Christ alone. Salvation was accomplished at the cross.

But, there is another way of stating it which people often do.  As you say, the Church has a role in bringing people to Christ, although in one sense it is the Holy Spirit that does that.  Anyway, if we acknowledge that the Chruch has a role in bringing people to Christ, it is also correct to say that bringing people to Christ is a role in salvation.

[Gregory]

One cannot be saved and not be a member of the church.

Correct, but only if one relizes that in this sense the word "church" is not a denomination.  Rather it is the "body of Christ."

[Murcielago]

Gregory, do you believe that the SDA church is the "remnant church" of Rev 17, and that we are living in the final moments of earth's history in which every person will be given the opportunity to accept the message of our church, or be lost? Do you believe that in these times one must be for God's last day truth or against it? Or do you believe that there exists some middle ground?

[Gregory]

I believe that God has established the SDA Chruch as an organized denomination that has been given a mission as outlined in the 14th chapter of Revelation.

I believe that at this time in the history of the Church there exists a "body of Christ" that consists of people who are members of the SDA Chruch and in addition of people who are not members of the SDA Chruch and that this "body of Christ" is saved even though they may be divided on some points of belief.  These people are committed to Christ and to following the leading of the Holy Slpirit.

I beleive that the time will come when all living members of the "body of Christ" will have been led by the Holy Spirit to be united in belief (to include the Sabbath) and that at that time in the history of the Church the SDA Church as an organized body will not exist. So, while united in belief, there will be many members of the "Body of Christ" who are not and never have been members of the SDA Church.

So, I expect to live in heaven with people who have never been members of the organized SDA Church.

I trust that this will provide with a definative answer to your question. 

[Gregory]

I have some realatives who formerly were members of thel SDA Church but have not been for years.  For a number of years they have not been associated with any denomination or church.  Recently they have become quite interested in a well-known evangelist, not SDA, who is preaching several unique SDA Doctrines, but not the Sabbath.  When he comes to their area, they travel to wherever he is to hear him.  As a result they have recently began attending, on Sabbath, a local church (not SDA) that has services on Sabbath and on Sunday. 

I cannot help but believe that the Holy Spirit is leading in these events.  I trust in God that the HolySpirit will continue to lead.  I am willing to wait to see how that goes and the direction that it takes.

The bottom line is that some SDA congregations are not a place where some people can grow spiritually. In such places it just may be that the Holly Spirit would lead these people to a non-SDA congregation where they cold grow spiritually.  Doing so, I assume that the Holy Spirit would continue to lead these people in the spiritual direction that God would want them to go.  Who knows, if a local SDA congregation was able and willing to assume the role that God would want of it, these people just might be led to this congregation.

We may be in the "last days."  But, in my opinion, we are not yet at the place were the people of God are all in one denominational organization.  As I said in another post.  When the time comes where the people of God are united in belief, there will not be any organized SDA Church.

[Johann]

I miss a "Like" button here like on FaceBook!

[christian]

I have some realatives who formerly were members of thel SDA Church but have not been for years.  For a number of years they have not been associated with any denomination or church.  Recently they have become quite interested in a well-known evangelist, not SDA, who is preaching several unique SDA Doctrines, but not the Sabbath.  When he comes to their area, they travel to wherever he is to hear him.  As a result they have recently began attending, on Sabbath, a local church (not SDA) that has services on Sabbath and on Sunday. 

I cannot help but believe that the Holy Spirit is leading in these events.  I trust in God that the HolySpirit will continue to lead.  I am willing to wait to see how that goes and the direction that it takes.

The bottom line is that some SDA congregations are not a place where some people can grow spiritually. In such places it just may be that the Holly Spirit would lead these people to a non-SDA congregation where they cold grow spiritually.  Doing so, I assume that the Holy Spirit would continue to lead these people in the spiritual direction that God would want them to go.  Who knows, if a local SDA congregation was able and willing to assume the role that God would want of it, these people just might be led to this congregation.

We may be in the "last days."  But, in my opinion, we are not yet at the place were the people of God are all in one denominational organization.  As I said in another post.  When the time comes where the people of God are united in belief, there will not be any organized SDA Church.

I live in an area where one of the Elders carry a gun to church. The church at its pot lucks serve all manner of meat, flesh with no regard for the health message. Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about when people think it is the church that saves them and not the Savior. Let me correct myself a bit since it is obvious that if the church has an elder packing a gun obviously they don't totally believe in God's protection. Actually, rightfully they should not depend on the Lords protection since they are totally against many of the things that the Spirit of Prophecy says. ----

The problem is that most people as I see it simply don't believe in the things that God says. If the tree of life was present as it was in Adam and Eves day I can just imagine the reasoning that would take place. With things such as women ordinance and the Health message, music and dress the problem with these things rest with the so called logical mind. Even though Jesus picked 12 to be the disciples and despite the obvious God given roll of women, still the deluded mind of some men push for a position for women that God never intended for a woman to hold. Like the serpent of old they rationalize against the plain teachings of the Bible. With every slippery step towards perdition there has always beforehand been a rational to justify the course of action. Plan and simple most of the recent changes happening to the church are a respose to some desire to obtain what God has forbidden. The topic for women's ordination is similar in character to those to justify Sunday worship, they say, they keep everyday holy. But Sunday is and invention of man and no matter what men say and how Holy they are on Sunday it does not make the day Holy. Women's ordination will never change the fact that God did not give that work to Women but rather the burden was given to men. God did not give the burden for men to bear children that was given to women only and they are the only ones suited to properly do the job.

[Johann]

Christian, I wonder why you keep on talking about a "roll" in connection with women. What kind of a "roll" are you talking about? Is it a roll of paper or some other kind of a roll? No wonder there is some confusion.

Your spelling is usually fairly correct, so I wonder if you are referring to a "role". Some of those people who hate to see that Ellen White speaks of women being ordained, use the word "role" quite a bit, even though I have never seen that word in Scripture. Perhaps they have some kind of Super-Scripture where they get their definitions?

Apart from that, Christian, I agree fully with you that we are in the Laodicean period, just before the return of our Lord, where wickedness abounds in the church. I pray earnestly that before long your eyes will be opened and you will see clearly how this reluctance to look at women as children of God, is a great part of this wickedness.