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[Johann]

Finally we have an official statement by the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the situation in China:

5. Information that a number of women serve as ordained ministers in China has been cited as justification, for unions elsewhere to proceed in a similar manner.  It has been alleged that the Northern Asia-Pacific Division recognizes these ordinations and has therefore established a precedent for granting ministerial ordination to women.  However, these ordinations were not authorized or conducted according to the policies of the Church.  Nor are these ordinations approved or recognized/endorsed by the Northern Asia-Pacific Division.  The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not have an officially organized structure in China that is comparable to other areas of the world.  Government regulations do not permit outside involvement in church affairs within China.  The practice, in China, of ministerial ordination for women is acknowledged as a reality that has arisen in China and is beyond the influence of the world-wide structure of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5488/archives/issue-2012-1518/18-cn-an-appeal-for-unity

[Gregory]

Note what footnote 3 4 says:

4. The 1995 General Conference Session action denied the request of the North American Division that the Session adopt provisions on ordination as outlined below:  "The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.

What do you think it means where it says? 

In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.

 

[Bob Pickle]

Note what footnote 3 4 says:

4. The 1995 General Conference Session action denied the request of the North American Division that the Session adopt provisions on ordination as outlined below:  "The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.

What do you think it means where it says? 

In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions.

Under that proposal, first you would have to have the division exec. comm. vote to permit women's ordination, and then unions within that division could authorize the ordination of women by conferences.

[Johann]

Somehow Norwegian and a U.S. state's requirement that a minister register before performing marriages sounds different than the Chinese government deciding who gets ordained and who does not. A refusal by Norway or a U.S. state to allow a minister to marry people does not mean that that minister is no longer ordained.

I do not know what official reaction will come from our Brethren in Norway to this document from the General Conference, but a source explains to me that it will be difficult for our church in Norway to comply both with the legal requirements of equality, since they already have a number of women in the ministry, and then with the new request from the General Conference. A source indicates that this document makes the situation in Norway somewhat similar to that in China.

As I said, I do not know what the final verdict will be, nor the thinking of the majority. Will some countries be forced to go the same way as China?

[SDAminister]

There is a major difference between saying that someone is approved by the government and in saying that the government itself ordains that person.  Your statement, to which I objected, was to the effect that the Chinese government ordains SDA Clergy.  I do not believe that for one minute.  I welcome your correction.  If you tell me that this Chinese government has had public (or private) ceremonies in which candidates whom they picked, were ordained by the government, I will have to reevaulate my understanding.

So, if the SDA Church in the United States were to state that the Department of Homeland Security was to have final say over the ordination of all pastors, you wouldn't consider that a problem? Whence cometh authority? They asked Jesus, by whose authority do you do these things?

In China, by whose authority do you they ordain? Answer, the government's!

[SDAminister]

Finally we have an official statement by the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the situation in China:

5. ... It has been alleged that the Northern Asia-Pacific Division recognizes these ordinations and has therefore established a precedent for granting ministerial ordination to women.  However, these ordinations were not authorized or conducted according to the policies of the Church.  Nor are these ordinations approved or recognized/endorsed by the Northern Asia-Pacific Division.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5488/archives/issue-2012-1518/18-cn-an-appeal-for-unity

And yet, Jan Paulsen, as President, said that they ARE recognized.
"The fact is we have at least half a dozen women pastors who are ordained as ministers in China. We recognize them as ordained ministers; they are in our records in the statistics in the Yearbook. " http://www.adventistworld.org/article/598/resources/english/issue-2009-1008/finding-faith-in-china

So, who is lying? 

[Gregory]

I agree with what SDAMinister has said about the female SDA Clergy being recognized by the General Conference..  She/He is correct.   

[Johann]

At least the General Conference recognized the ordination of the female pastors in China by placing their names as ordained pastors in our Yearbook.

If they are not listed there today, by what authority has their ordination been annulled? What had they committed to have their ordination annulled?

It does happen that a minister gets his ordination canceled, and I know  that it can be done by the local conference by not re-appointing him as a minister in good and regular standing. Some time after that the same thing happened to the president who "fired" the other one.

The fact is that every minister is up for re-election at the same time as the president and the administration of the conference. If he is not re-elected he is without a job. There has been some discussion if he is still ordained if he is not re-hired or is without a job. I am told that my ordination is still valid even if I am not hired by a conference but I receive a pension.

[Gregory]

It does happen that a minister gets his ordination canceled, and I know  that it can be done by the local conference by not re-appointing him as a minister in good and regular standing. Some time after that the same thing happened to the president who "fired" the other one.

An ordination is not cancelled (The word in annuled.) when theperson is not re-appointed.  RAther, teh credentials expire and are not renewed, or it is possible for the credentials to be cancelled.

To annnul the ordination requires a seperate action which typically is only done for apostacy and/or sexual misconduct.

[Johann]

Different terms are used in various areas where English  is not the main language.

It is difficult to say that an ordination is universal, because no pastor can go one a freelance spree and work just anywhere without being accepted by the local conference, usually going through the union office. No matter how much ordained the preacher is, it is completely up to the local conference to decide if they will accept him there or not, and there might be entirely different qualification required besides the ordination in different conferences.

[Johann]

Catholic Bishop resigns in China:

<http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/china-bishop-thaddeus-ma-daqin-exiled-for-defiance/story-fnb64oi6-1226423819572>