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[Bob Pickle]

You make an important point here, Bob. Some people in our Church believe sincerely that this matter is settled in Scripture and the SoP and therefore the church would be blessed by issuing certain women the same certificate the General Conference issued Ellen G White as an ordained minister rather than a commissioned minister.

They may believe sincerely, but they have difficulty thus far in articulating a solid biblical and SoP basis for their belief. And that is a problem.

[Snoopy]

We really are not consistent. 

I totally agree with that statement.  Additionally, favoritism and nepotism run rampant, in my experience anyway.

A constant fight with human sinful nature. The church should be a hospital, but healing is only available if the divine physician is allowed to do His work.

Too many egos in SS in the way for that, I'm afraid...  It's sad, really.

[Snoopy]

Snoopy:  Sometimes.

I do not justify.  I do not excuse.

Denominations are a mixture of godly and human.  As human they are imperfect.  In their human element they may discourage people on their spiritual journey.

Some years back I went through a spiritual crisis where I re-evaulated my relationship to the SDA denomination.  My decision to remain came only after I decided that I would not allow anyone else to define the SDA Chruch for me.  Rather I wold define it for myself, I would determine what was representative of what God would ask of the SDA church and I would disstinguish between that and what I saw as human imperfection.

Out of that experience, I do not judge the spiritual walk that others take.  I do not attempt to impose my views on them.  Each person must make  their personal decisions as to spirituality, hopefullly led by the Holy Spirit and it is not my function in life to put them in a box.

At the risk of being misunderstood: Some people have been so injured in their relationship with the SDA Chruch that in order to experience the love of Christ and salvation, they must leave.  Hopefully they will be able to return at some point in their journey.  In any case the God who loves them will continue to seek to lead them spiritually.

Well, did I open up a Pandora's Box?   

No.  On the contrary, your thoughts gave me hope!  Thank you!!

[Gregory]

Bob, in the days of my early ministry I lived in metro-washington DC.  I spent time at the General Conferences reading in the vaults the articles in the REVIEW and other such publications.  There was a lot of contraversy then over the role of EGW since she was a female.  Those publications reported on the contraversy and the differencs of opinon.  The arguements were essentially the same as are made today.

No, I cannot give you a listing of references.

[Johann]

Bob, in the days of my early ministry I lived in metro-washington DC.  I spent time at the General Conferences reading in the vaults the articles in the REVIEW and other such publications.  There was a lot of contraversy then over the role of EGW since she was a female.  Those publications reported on the contraversy and the differencs of opinon.  The arguements were essentially the same as are made today.

No, I cannot give you a listing of references.

What you are stating here, Gregory, is fully in agreement with studies and reading I did while taking classes in SDA church history, but just like you, I do not have the references, except in my memory during the past 50-60 years. However, I recall reading quite a bit about it in the writings of Ellen White as well. And it certainly is true that the modern antagonists against women in ministry are parroting the objections used against that young girl claiming she was called by God. I'd like to make a study to see if they aren't interpreting Scripture in the same way, because some things point in that direction.

[Johann]

We really are not consistent. 

I totally agree with that statement.  Additionally, favoritism and nepotism run rampant, in my experience anyway.

A constant fight with human sinful nature. The church should be a hospital, but healing is only available if the divine physician is allowed to do His work.

Too many egos in SS in the way for that, I'm afraid...  It's sad, really.

A good reason to keep studying Scripture to rediscover the love of God and how it should reflect in our own lives. It is impossible for us to work on being good and obedient in order to love God and others. It is but the love of Christ, like Paul states it, which constrains us to do good.

Let's pray for each other!

[Johann]

Just because there are rebellious teenagers in the world is no evidence this is a rebellion.

If the unions and conferences involved make it crystal clear that they will not ordain a woman until permitted to do so by a GC Session vote, then there certainly is not rebellion against properly constituted church authority going on.

This may be true, Bob, but you expressed an exception yourself, and that is  unless you are convinced the GC vote was made contrary to the will of God as expressed in Scripture and/or the Spirit of Prophecy. It is  my honest belief that it is this conviction which has prompted certain duly elected Church leaders to follow their conviction and conscience, knowing the history of the past how similar arguments were used against the young girl, Ellen Harmon.

Ellen White praised young Martin Luther for rebelling against the decisions of the Church when his conscience convinced  him to go in a different direction, and not wait for the approval of the cardinal. This was at a time when the future program of the church was dependent on the income derived from the sale of indulgences, but that did not prevent Martin from stepping forward.

Have you seen the church door where young Martin nailed his rebellious post? There is a comfortable room in the nearby SDA church where you can stay overnight for a modest fee.

[Johann]

You make an important point here, Bob. Some people in our Church believe sincerely that this matter is settled in Scripture and the SoP and therefore the church would be blessed by issuing certain women the same certificate the General Conference issued Ellen G White as an ordained minister rather than a commissioned minister.

They may believe sincerely, but they have difficulty thus far in articulating a solid biblical and SoP basis for their belief. And that is a problem.

At times actions speak louder than a clear articulation.

[Johann]

I truly  wonder why we do not follow the prophetic guidance the Lord so graciously bestowed on the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I find it interesting how many times we do find resolutions taken in the past in the direction of ordaining women. Then so many treat the leaders who worked in this direction as if they did not read the Word of God, So many of our Bible teachers have studied the question thoroughly and come to the conclusion that it is Biblical to ordain women.
Many refer to 1 Tim. 3 without considering how the original Greek of verse 11 is being translated by many scholars, and is shown in a number of Bible translations which show that the same principles that are listed for men, apply to women as well. Just look at your KJV and notice that three words in that verse are rendered in italics which show that they are added to the original text by the translators. Then the word for "women" is rendered as "their wives" by those translators. To me this is a sign that some portions of our Bible have been manipulated by chauvinist males, probably the same who placed the comma in the wrong place in Luke 23:43.
Consider also how some of our pioneers rejected the testimony of the young Ellen Harmon because she was just a girl, and yet she was ordained by God himself, and she had no qualms about receiving the certificate and classification as an ordained minister in our church,
Add to that that Ellen White pronounced in 1895 that certain women in our church should be ordained, and that she never issued one iota against the ordination of female ministers in the church. How could she, when she herself was classified as an ordained minister?
In spite of this we still have these male chauvinists who think they can change and manipulate all of the facts according to their own desires. Then just now it has been revealed that one of the most expressive chauvinist of them all, an expert and scholar classifying the role of women in comparison with that of the male, has showed by his own example that such women are but playthings to gratify the lust of man.

[Snoopy]

We really are not consistent. 

I totally agree with that statement.  Additionally, favoritism and nepotism run rampant, in my experience anyway.

Recently I was part of an SDA workgroup where our secretary, a married lady, was carrying on a friendship with a married man - an old romantic flame from academy.  This woman's husband was not thrilled about this, of course, so to appease him she quit communicating with the old flame from her home.  Alternatively, she resorted to maintaining the friendship from our office using church equipment and systems, even receiving gifts from him there!!  As far as I know to this day, she still has a wooden basket on her desk with a gold heart attached which she hides with silk flowers!!!  I could usually tell when she was chatting with this guy online by the dreamy look on her face!!

[Johann]

Sin waits at the door for many of us, both men and women.

[Sauliga]

Hi Johann

"The term ordination is not found anywhere in the Bible, so it needs to be defined. . . How, and by whom?"
Certainly agree with you on this one. I can't believe this is such a contentious issue and one that can hinder the spread of the gospel. Who cares?I don't.Women whether ordained or not are also part of the great commission of Christ to spread the message to the whole world. EGW's counsel is ideal, but reality is as much important. Don't you think?

[Johann]

Hi Johann

"The term ordination is not found anywhere in the Bible, so it needs to be defined. . . How, and by whom?"
Certainly agree with you on this one. I can't believe this is such a contentious issue and one that can hinder the spread of the gospel. Who cares?I don't.Women whether ordained or not are also part of the great commission of Christ to spread the message to the whole world. EGW's counsel is ideal, but reality is as much important. Don't you think?

Welcome, Sauliga. Good to see you here. I hope we willl have some enjoyable time together here.

It was a woman who first brought the resurrection message. It was a woman who had the greatest influence on forming our church right from the beginning. It would not surprise me if women will close the work so Jesus can come back.

[christian]

Hi Johann

"The term ordination is not found anywhere in the Bible, so it needs to be defined. . . How, and by whom?"
Certainly agree with you on this one. I can't believe this is such a contentious issue and one that can hinder the spread of the gospel. Who cares?I don't.Women whether ordained or not are also part of the great commission of Christ to spread the message to the whole world. EGW's counsel is ideal, but reality is as much important. Don't you think?

Johann, what gain do women get from being ordained? How is whether women are ordained or not hinder the spread of the gospel? Is this a prelude to women Conference Presidents or General Conference President? Is this a fight for better pay or more respect? In your opinion what is the end game here?

Welcome, Sauliga. Good to see you here. I hope we willl have some enjoyable time together here.

It was a woman who first brought the resurrection message. It was a woman who had the greatest influence on forming our church right from the beginning. It would not surprise me if women will close the work so Jesus can come back.

[Johann]

Hi Johann

"The term ordination is not found anywhere in the Bible, so it needs to be defined. . . How, and by whom?"
Certainly agree with you on this one. I can't believe this is such a contentious issue and one that can hinder the spread of the gospel. Who cares?I don't.Women whether ordained or not are also part of the great commission of Christ to spread the message to the whole world. EGW's counsel is ideal, but reality is as much important. Don't you think?

Johann, what gain do women get from being ordained? How is whether women are ordained or not hinder the spread of the gospel? Is this a prelude to women Conference Presidents or General Conference President? Is this a fight for better pay or more respect? In your opinion what is the end game here?

Welcome, Sauliga. Good to see you here. I hope we willl have some enjoyable time together here.

It was a woman who first brought the resurrection message. It was a woman who had the greatest influence on forming our church right from the beginning. It would not surprise me if women will close the work so Jesus can come back.

The greatest gain I can think of at the moment is the knowledge they are following the Spirit of Prophecy and not the great crowd of Adventists who think we do not have to follow her any more. It is ridiculous then to claim they are doing it for greater pay or prestige.

Tell me why you are a vegetarian? Is it only because meat is more expensive? Or do you have any other reason?