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[Johann]

Women and their Words

BY GINA WAHLEN
Women and their words have always played an important role in the life of the Adventist Review. It began with words from a 20-year-old wife and mother, Ellen G. White, in Dorchester, Massachusetts, in November 1848. After emerging from a heaven-sent vision, she told her husband, James, “I have a message for you. You must begin to print a little paper and send it out to the people. . . . From this small beginning it was shown to me to be like streams of light that went clear round the world” (Life Sketches, p. 125).
 
That first little paper, The Present Truth, came off the press in July 1849. Later the paper’s name was changed to Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. In addition to being a visionary, Ellen White was a main contributor to the paper, which published hundreds of her articles.
 
A Promising Young Writer
Just two years after the first issue was printed, editor James White invited a promising young writer named Annie Smith to work for him as copy editor. “For the next three years,” writes Erica Richards in her article “The Story of Annie Smith” (see Adventist World, November 2009), “Annie worked diligently for the Review and was eventually given full responsibility for the paper while the Whites were away,” although her name did not appear in the masthead.
 
In addition to her editorial work, Smith published 45 hymns and poems in the Review before her life was cut short by tuberculosis when she was just 27.
 
A perusal of the Review’s pages since Smith’s death in 1855 reveals the bylines of numerous women who have made valuable contributions through their articles, reports, poetry, and other writings.
 
On the Masthead
However, it wasn’t until August 7, 1941, under the editorship of Francis M. Wilcox, that a woman’s name appeared on the masthead of the Review and Herald, when Ruth Conrad was listed as editorial secretary. Soon the names of more women and men were added as “Spot News Special Correspondents.”
 
Thirty-six years later, on October 27, 1977, Jocelyn Fay was introduced as an assistant editor of the magazine. This was the first time a woman had been promoted to the level of an editor at the Review. Jocelyn (or Jocey) had been listed as an editorial assistant, then editorial associate, before editor Kenneth Wood presented her name to the board to serve as an assistant editor. This was not a new position, having been filled by D. A. Delafield in the 1940s and by Wood himself in the late 1950s.
 
First Female Assistant Editor
“When I first came to the Review in 1973,” Fay recalls, “the men on the staff were editors, the women were all secretaries.” She learned of her new position as an assistant editor when, coming back from lunch one day, she found flowers and cards on her desk. “I think that’s what made it real to me,” she said.
 
The new assistant editor began editing news and obituaries, then moved on to articles and features, some of which she wrote. In addition to writing and editing, Fay also did the “pasteup” (before the days of desktop publishing) of the dummy pages for the news section, and eventually of the entire magazine after the Review switched to a new design.
 
Jocelyn Fay became managing editor at the Review in 1983. William Johnsson proposed this new position in early 1983 as a way to smooth the transition of the Review and Herald moving to Hagerstown, and the Adventist Review coming under the auspices of the General Conference. The managing editor acted as a liaison between the publishing house and the editorial offices of the magazine. “Jocey was a very organized person, and well respected by the press as a person who kept to schedules,” remembers Johnsson.
 
In 1986 Fay moved to Atlantic Union College as public relations and alumni director. She later worked at the Review and Herald Publishing Association as a copy editor, and in 2007 went to the Southeastern California Conference, where she served as assistant to the president for communication.
 
Fay retired on September 1, 2011, after 43 years of working for the Seventh-day Adventist Church and meeting publication deadlines. She hopes that one of her contributions to the Review was to “help open doors for the women who are there now, and that they will do the same for the younger women who are following.”
 
Learning at the Review
When she joined the staff of the Review as a secretary in 1974, Aileen Andres (later Sox) had no previous editorial experience, but she did have a master’s degree in Spanish. The publication was starting a Spanish edition for the Inter-American and South American divisions, and her language skills were a strong asset. Before long she was promoted to “editorial secretary,” with Wood’s promise that if she would learn, more promotions would follow.
 
“Kenneth Wood had a wonderful ability to make people feel that they were part of a work family,” said Sox. “He treated us all very equally, and he wanted everyone to have a backup—to know the other person’s job. He would say, ‘If one of us gets the bubonic plague, someone has to get the magazine out!’”
 
In 1980 Andres-Sox became the second woman to serve as an assistant editor. In addition to writing, editing, recruiting authors, and guiding the monthly Spanish edition, she learned to do the pasteup from Jocey—a skill that still serves her well and helps her keep costs down as longtime editor of Our Little Friend and Primary Treasure.
 
Years later, at the memorial service for Kenneth and Miriam Wood, Aileen Andres Sox reminisced: “Elder Wood used to tell Jocey and me that we were like his daughters. One time he added, ‘just not in the will.’ But that’s not a problem for me. He gave me a rich inheritance; I just got it all while he was living.”
 
A Creative Time
When Deborah Anfenson-Vance joined the Adventist Review as an assistant editor in early 1985, the staff was still using typewriters. But not long after her arrival, the entire team transitioned to computers.
 
Before coming to the Review, Anfenson-Vance had been assistant editor at Insight magazine. She held a master’s degree in New Testament studies from Andrews University, where Johnsson had been one of her professors. Some years later when Johnsson called Deborah to work at the Review, she decided the timing was right, in spite of having to care for a 2-month-old daughter.
 
“I had already worked as a writer and editor,” she recalls, “and I had the theological background. My husband was at a point where he wanted to make a transition in his career, so he stayed at home with our young daughter . . . ?and I went to work at the Review.”
 
Anfenson-Vance especially enjoyed the creativity of the job, and helped in the magazine’s redesign. She found the writing assignments rewarding and put a lot of effort into her editorials. “It was fun to be a part of something that was really growing and creative. We were always planning new things. . . . I learned a lot about writing and editing and the discipline of getting things done.”
 
The 1985 General Conference session in New Orleans was especially memorable for Anfenson-Vance because of a writing assignment that featured Adventist artists—Vernon Nye, Harry Anderson, and Irvin Grey Althage—whose paintings touched the assistant editor’s heart. “I still have the photograph [of Althage’s painting], and it always touches me to remember meeting this man who was so quiet and humble, yet so strong in his artistic expression.”
 
Since leaving the Review in 1988, Anfenson-Vance (now known as Deborah O’Keefe) has lived in California, Louisiana, and Washington before moving to Virginia. She has transitioned from being a full-time writer to a full-time visual artist who travels the country. “For me,” she said, “art is another form of connection with people and some sort of spiritual expression. At every art show there are people who come, and they will be moved in a spiritual way.”
 
Addressing Issues Confronting the Church
When assistant editor Jocelyn Fay left, Johnsson turned to Kit Watts to fill the vacancy. Her background—with a master’s degree in religion, another degree in library science, and her experience as an associate pastor at Sligo church—combined to make Watts a strong candidate.
 
Picking up Fay’s duties, Watts greatly assisted in the mechanics of putting the magazine together. She was also in charge of the Reflections page and wrote news articles. Later her responsibilities included editing lifestyle articles, recruiting authors, and interfacing with the publishing house.
 
Watts served on committees of the General Conference, including the newly formed Global Mission Committee and committees dealing with women’s issues. As the women’s retreat movement became more active, she traveled the country, attending and reporting on these events.
 
One of the most enjoyable aspects of her work was discussing issues confronting the church. “Having the ability to translate some of these issues into the church paper and applying Adventist Christian principles to them was an amazing experience—to be involved in issues that really matter in the church,” she said.
 
Reflecting on the collegiality of the staff, Watts noted that “we interacted well and often. It wasn’t just the magazine that we were involved with . . . we made opportunities to work together as an entire group—both women and men. . . . It was a real special experience.”
 
In 1997 Kit Watts accepted two half-time positions—one with the Communication Department at the Southeastern California Conference (SECC), the other as director of the new Women’s Resource Center at La Sierra University. Later she worked full-time at the SECC, but continued assisting at the Women’s Resource Center. In 2007 she retired, but faced some unwelcome surprises, including battling cancer. She continues to recover and is enjoying lots of fresh air, a garden, two burros, and two cats at her home in Milton-Freewater, Oregon.
 
“It was a great blessing to be involved [at the Review]. I had wanted to do that even as a young person. . . . It’s nice to look back and realize that God has had a hand in your life.”

Managing the Editors
When Myrna Tetz, an experienced teacher, dean, and communications director, received her second call to join the AR team in 1997, it was to be managing editor. “I was responsible to get the articles to the press on time. There were always deadlines. I proofread, edited, did some writing and troubleshooting.” In addition, Tetz enjoyed reading articles people sent in, and says she “hated turning any of them down.” She was also in charge of the Reflections page, Lifestyle/Health, and the news commentary.
 
Tetz considers the people she worked with during her five years at the Review as lifelong friends. Thankful for the younger editors, Andy Nash and Kimberly Luste Maran, Tetz felt that it was “such a compliment to have a young person seem to appreciate me being there.”
 
Following her retirement in 2002, Tetz and her husband, Bob, settled in Durham, North Carolina. They now live in British Columbia, where she continues writing for a variety of publications and serving as a consulting editor for Ministry magazine.
 
“Who Is That Guy?”
Bonita Joyner Shields was an associate pastor at the Spencerville, Maryland, church when she received the invitation from William Johnsson to join the AR team in 2002 as an assistant editor. An accomplished author with a heart for ministry, Shields saw this as an opportunity to minister to the world church through her writing.
 
She joined with Kimberly Luste Maran and Merle Poirier in launching AR’s new magazine for younger readers—KidsView. One of her favorite memories regarding KidsView was when she coordinated the on-going focus group termed the “KidsView Advisory Board.” Thinking the kids would enjoy meeting the world church president, Bonita invited then-president Jan Paulsen to attend one of the group’s meetings. As Pastor Paulsen was speaking to the KidsView board members, one of the youngsters leaned over to Shields, asking, “Who ?is this guy?”
 
While at the Review, Joyner-Shields also coordinated the monthly “Discipleship” issue, a topic she feels strongly about, remarking that “Discipleship is about the whole gospel for the whole person to the whole world” (The Kingdom Life, NavPress, 2010).” She says, ?“I would love to see us [Adventists] reclaim that. God calls us to this abundant life, this wholeness.”
 
Leaving the Review in 2007, Joyner-Shields continues her editorial work as editor of the Sabbath School Bible Study Guides for children and youth, ages 10-18. She also serves as assistant director for discipleship for the General Conference Sabbath School and Personal Ministries Department.
 
Today’s Team
Today women make up a strong core of the Adventist Review/Adventist World staff; and half of the total team. Sandra Blackmer serves as features editor; Kimberly Luste Maran is the young adult editor; and Wilona Karimabadi is editor of KidsView, as well as an assistant editor for the Adventist Review. Merle Poirier is assistant to the editor for production, while Gina Wahlen is assistant to the editor. Judy Thomsen is correspondence editor, and Rachel Child is the publication’s financial manager. Editorial assistants play a vital role at the Adventist Review, especially in keeping the manuscript process running smoothly. Several women in recent years have filled this role, including Jackie Ordelheide Smith (1985-1994) and as marketing director (2003-2007); Ella Rydzewski (1994-2003); Ruth Wright (1999-2005); Larie Gray (2005-2006); and Marvene Thorpe-Baptiste (2007-present). Other women who had significant involvement as AR staff include Charlotte Pederson McClure, associate publisher (1999-2000); and Shelley Nolan Frees-land, associate publisher and marketing director (2000-2002).
 
“A journal—and a worldwide publishing enterprise—that began with a vision given to a woman can’t fully serve God’s end-time people unless it actively recognizes and recruits the gifts and skills of women,” says senior editor Bill Knott. “For its first editions, the Adventist Review was suffused with the wisdom and passion of the women of this movement. Their contributions—theological, pastoral, motherly, practical—gave this journal and its ‘daughter’ publications a prominent place in Protestant publishing, and dramatically moved this people forward. It will always be the business of the Adventist Review to make certain that the team that shapes the church’s major journals celebrates the giftedness of this movement’s female majority.”
 
___________
Gina Wahlen is assistant to the editor of the Adventist Review. She has enjoyed writing articles for the Review since 1985. This article was published May 10, 2012.

[Johann]

“June 16, 1916
“Mrs. L. E. Cox
“Dear sister,
“In my answer under date of March 22, I was unable to forward you copy of the Review article called for, but ventured to say, ‘I have not understood these extracts as teaching positively the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel. I have supposed, rather, that they refer primarily to the ordination of God-fearing women as deaconesses in local churches.’ {DG 254.5}
“Since writing the above, I have found the article in question and have had same copied. Enclosed find a copy of this article. [The Review and Herald, July 9, 1895.] I am also forwarding a copy to your local conference president, Elder E. L. Neff, and to the president of your union, Elder J. W. Christian, that they may know what I am sending to you. {DG 254.6}
“While I do not make it a part of my work to presume to interpret that which has been written, yet I may be pardoned for expressing as my conviction the thought that this article published in the Review does not refer to the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel, but rather touches upon the question of setting apart, for special duties in local churches, God-fearing women in such churches where circumstances call for such action. {DG 255.1}
“And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world; but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister. {DG 255.2}
“This is not suggesting, much less saying, that no women are fitted for such public labor, and that none should ever be ordained; it is simply saying that so far as my knowledge extends, Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the general customs of the church in those matters.”—C. C. Crisler. {DG 255.3}

[Johann]

Here are two documents I find quite interesting. Ghina Wahlen points out that it was a young lady 20 years old who suggested her husband should publish a paper, and this is was the beginning of our official church paper. The young lady was, of course, Ellen G. White, who wrote hundreds of articles for this paper.

Two years later James White, the editor, invited another young lady to write for the paper, and when the Whites were travelling this young lady, Annie Smith, did all the editorial work on the paper, while also writing a total of 45 hymns, yet her name never appeared on the masthead.

The story indicates how slowly the male editors have been to give credit to female editors of our church papers through the years, even though we have had female editors of other magazines published by the church.

Does this reluctance indicate a genereral trend in our history?

The story around Clarence C. Crisler's letter is an indication of this trend. I understand him as indicating the time was not yet when women are to be ordained as ministers, but that this time might well be in the future.

This reminds again of when Ellen White says about eggs and milk, that the time will come when we cannot use these products safely. But she never states when that time will come.

So it is with the ordination. Time will come, but when? Why should individuals be allowed to hammer in the ears of our leaders that such a time will never come?

Times have changed.

1. The Roman Catholic Church has made this a mark of allegiance to the pope.

2. Women are no longer looked at as an inferior creation in society.

3. Other reformed churches are seeing the light before us.

4. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White state anywhere that women are not to be ordained.

5. Ellen White has made it clear that women are to be ordained under certain circumstances. Who are we to hold back?

6. Do we still believe that Jesus is coming back soon? If we do, and there is coming a time when women should be ordained for the ministry, should that wait till we get to heaven? Will anyone be ordained there?

7. . . .     [later]

[Bob Pickle]

The story around Clarence C. Crisler's letter is an indication of this trend. I understand him as indicating the time was not yet when women are to be ordained as ministers, but that this time might well be in the future.

...

So it is with the ordination. Time will come, but when?

Johann,

To me he was simply trying to not draw any more of a conclusion from Ellen White's words than what those words clearly said. Therefore, I'm not sure he was saying that the time would come. He certainly didn't foreclose that possibility, but doesn't seem to say one way or the other, unless I've missed something.

[Johann]

The story around Clarence C. Crisler's letter is an indication of this trend. I understand him as indicating the time was not yet when women are to be ordained as ministers, but that this time might well be in the future.

...

So it is with the ordination. Time will come, but when?

Johann,

To me he was simply trying to not draw any more of a conclusion from Ellen White's words than what those words clearly said. Therefore, I'm not sure he was saying that the time would come. He certainly didn't foreclose that possibility, but doesn't seem to say one way or the other, unless I've missed something.

Did you miss that while Ellen White was in Australia women were ordained as deaconesses, and that on one occasion it was her son who performed the ordination of elder, deacons, and deaconesses?

[tinka]

“June 16, 1916
“Mrs. L. E. Cox
“Dear sister,
“In my answer under date of March 22, I was unable to forward you copy of the Review article called for, but ventured to say, ‘I have not understood these extracts as teaching positively the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel. I have supposed, rather, that they refer primarily to the ordination of God-fearing women as deaconesses in local churches.’ {DG 254.5}
“Since writing the above, I have found the article in question and have had same copied. Enclosed find a copy of this article. [The Review and Herald, July 9, 1895.] I am also forwarding a copy to your local conference president, Elder E. L. Neff, and to the president of your union, Elder J. W. Christian, that they may know what I am sending to you. {DG 254.6}
“While I do not make it a part of my work to presume to interpret that which has been written, yet I may be pardoned for expressing as my conviction the thought that this article published in the Review does not refer to the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel, but rather touches upon the question of setting apart, for special duties in local churches, God-fearing women in such churches where circumstances call for such action. {DG 255.1}
“And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world;  (this is true statement) but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister. {DG 255.2} (true)
“

This is not suggesting, much less saying, that no women are fitted for such public labor, and that none should ever be ordained; it is simply saying that so far as my knowledge extends, (Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the general customs of the church in those matters.”—)C. C. Crisler.  (Very true but definitely a place where this sentence could get twisted ) {DG 255.3}

[/color]

What I did in red absolutely turns around and contradicts what she wrote above and adhered to as I posted before in what context of ordaining women.  NOTICE THIS OPINION ON HER IS WRITTEN BY C. CRISLER some true statements but yet leading into another in his own opinions. 

[Johann]

Did you notice that when C. C. Crisler received the letter from Mrs. Cox he replied immediately, stating that he was just going by memory. He would find the statement by Ellen White and reply within a few days.

When he did find the statement by Ellen White it took him several months to digest it, and now he was not replying as much by his own memory but by the actual statement by Ellen White. What made the difference?

How many of us are replying by what we think Ellen White should have said rather than by what she actually did say?

[Johann]

The story around Clarence C. Crisler's letter is an indication of this trend. I understand him as indicating the time was not yet when women are to be ordained as ministers, but that this time might well be in the future.

...

So it is with the ordination. Time will come, but when?

Johann,

To me he was simply trying to not draw any more of a conclusion from Ellen White's words than what those words clearly said. Therefore, I'm not sure he was saying that the time would come. He certainly didn't foreclose that possibility, but doesn't seem to say one way or the other, unless I've missed something.

To what extent does that depend on our previous view what we think it should say, when it actually points out a possibility? Could that be what you missed?

You have still not found a single statement where Ellen White says that women should not be ordained. Everything is just the opinion of others. Is that a platform on which we can base our condemnation of others?

[tinka]

2nd time I posted this on other thread to answer question
WHERE IN HERE DOES EGW GIVE GO AHEAD FOR "WOMEN CREDENTIALS OF ORDINATION OF WOMEN PREACHERS (the laying on of hands for women preachers) I read deaconess.

Now it appears they had this "women movement" in the churches back then and appears that men and women did their own choosing.so which route and just how far do you want to progress to?? Even in your post of EGW she states the problems that would come from it. EGW would not take part in the "womens movement" and felt that women should not vote,BOY WAS SHE RIGHT!.  Now a days, they've changed their tune to liking how Romney looks!!! Now thats a good reason to vote for him ?? wouldn't you say  
It's not the least confusing what the story is when you read " reasoning in English language". and not insert the maybe'ies, surmizing, and injections. Women speak, preach, teach, Bible workers, missionaries, etc etc, But laying on the hand of "ordained preaching credentials" No it is clearly understood in these writings and much more besides is written elsewhere, but I am just too busy at the moment to post this again. I believe this is sufficient enough for fact of the matter.


Appendix C - Exhibits Relating to the Ordination of Women

From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White
     A PAPER PRESENTED AT THE MINISTERIAL MEETING AT THE 1990 GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION. PREPARED BY THE WHITE ESTATE STAFF.  {DG 248.1}

     1. A RESOLUTION TO ORDAIN WOMEN WAS DISCUSSED AT THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF 1881. NO ACTION WAS TAKEN. THE MINUTES INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING LINES: {DG 248.2}
     "RESOLVED, THAT FEMALES POSSESSING THE NECESSARY QUALIFICATIONS TO FILL THAT POSITION MAY, WITH PERFECT PROPRIETY, BE SET APART BY ORDINATION TO THE WORK OF THE CHRISTIAN MINISTRY. {DG 248.3}
     "THIS WAS DISCUSSED BY J. O. CORLISS, A. C. BOURDEAU, E. R. JONES, D. H. LAMSON, W. H. LITTLEJOHN, A. S. HUTCHINS, D. M. CANRIGHT, AND J. N. LOUGHBOROUGH, AND REFERRED TO THE GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE."--RH, DEC. 20, 1881.{DG 248.4}
     ELLEN WHITE DID NOT ATTEND THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF 1881. HER HUSBAND DIED ON AUGUST 6 OF THAT YEAR. TWO WEEKS AFTER HIS DEATH SHE LEFT BATTLE CREEK, BOUND FOR CALIFORNIA. SHE DID NOT RETURN TO MICHIGAN UNTIL AUGUST OF 1883.{DG 248.5}

     2. FOR MANY YEARS ELLEN WHITE WAS VOTED MINISTERIAL CREDENTIALS BY THE MICHIGAN CONFERENCE (SEE E.G. RH, SEPT. 10, 1872),
249
AND THEN LATER BY THE GENERAL CONFERENCE. HOWEVER, SHE WAS NEVER ORDAINED BY HUMAN HANDS, NOR DID SHE EVER PERFORM A WEDDING, ORGANIZE A CHURCH, OR CONDUCT A BAPTISM.{DG 248.6}

     3. IN 1895 ELLEN WHITE RECOMMENDED THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN WHO WOULD GIVE THEMSELVES TO A DEACONESS-TYPE OF WORK:{DG 249.1}
     "Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church."--RH, July 9, 1895.{DG 249.2}
     A NUMBER OF WOMEN WERE ORDAINED AS DEACONESSES DURING ELLEN WHITE'S AUSTRALIAN MINISTRY. ON AUGUST 10, 1895, THE NOMINATING COMMITTEE AT THE ASHFIELD CHURCH IN SYDNEY RENDERED ITS REPORT, WHICH WAS APPROVED. THE CLERK'S MINUTES FOR THAT DATE STATE: "IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE ELECTION, THE OFFICERS WERE CALLED TO THE FRONT WHERE PASTORS CORLISS AND MCCULLAGH SET APART THE ELDER, DEACONS, [AND] DEACONESSES BY PRAYER AND THE LAYING ON OF HANDS."{DG 249.3}
     SEVERAL YEARS LATER, IN THE SAME CHURCH, W. C. WHITE OFFICIATED AT THE ORDINATION OF THE CHURCH OFFICERS. THE MINUTES OF THE ASHFIELD CHURCH FOR JANUARY 7, 1900, STATE: "THE PREVIOUS SABBATH OFFICERS HAD BEEN NOMINATED AND ACCEPTED FOR THE CURRENT YEAR, AND TODAY ELDER WHITE ORDAINED AND LAID HANDS ON THE ELDERS, DEACON, AND DEACONESSES.--AR, JAN. 16, 1986.{DG 249.4}

     4. WOMEN "LICENSED TO PREACH" BY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH DURING ELLEN WHITE'S LIFETIME INCLUDED THE FOLLOWING:
   1878   ANNA FULTON      MINNESOTA
      ELLEN S. LANE      MICHIGAN
      JULIA OWEN         KENTUCKY-TENNESSEE
   1879   LIBBIE COLLINS      MINNESOTA
      HATTIE ENOCH      KANSAS

250
 
      LIBBIE FULTON      MINNESOTA
      LIZZIE POST         MINNESOTA
   1880   ANNA JOHNSON      MINNESOTA
   1881   IDA W. BALLENGER   ILLINOIS
      HELEN L. MORSE      ILLINOIS
   1884   RUIE HILL         KANSAS
   1886   IDA W. HIBBEN      ILLINOIS
   1887   MRS. S. E. PIERCE      VERMONT
   1893   FLORA PLUMMER      IOWA
   1894   MARGARET CARO      NEW ZEALAND
   1895   MRS. S. A. LINDSAY   NEW YORK
   1898    SAREPTA IRISH HENRY   GEN. CONF.
      LULU WIGHTMAN      NEW YORK
   1899   EDITH BARTLETT      BRITISH CONF.
   1900   HETTY HASKELL      GEN. CONF.
      MINA ROBINSON      BRITISH CONF.
   1901   CARRIE V. HANSEN      UTAH
      EMMA HAWKINS      IOWA
      MRS. E. R. WILLIAMS   MICHIGAN
   1902   MRS. S. N. HASKELL   GREATER NY
      MINNIE SYPE      OKLAHOMA
   1904   ALMA BJDIGG      FINLAND MISSION
      MRS. J. E. BOND      ARIZONA
      BERTHA E. JORGENSEN   SOUTH DAKOTA
   1910   PEARL FIELD         NEBRASKA
      MRS. URA SPRING      NEBRASKA
 
--GENERAL CONFERENCE ARCHIVES AND SDA YEARBOOKS {DG 249.5}

     SOME OF THE WOMEN LISTED ABOVE WERE EMPLOYED BY THE CHURCH. OTHERS, SUCH AS MARGARET CARO, WHO WAS A DENTIST, WERE SELF-SUPPORTING.{DG 250.1}

    5. ELLEN WHITE MADE THREE STATEMENTS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES CONSTRUED AS EVIDENCE THAT SHE SUPPORTED THE CONCEPT OF WOMEN AS ORDAINED GOSPEL MINISTERS.{DG 250.2}
     IN 1898 SHE DECLARED THAT "there are women who should labor in the
251
gospel ministry" (Ev 472). THE CONTEXT OF THIS STATEMENT SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT SHE IS SPEAKING OF MINISTERS' WIVES. SHE WROTE:{DG 250.3}
     "Letters have come to me from several, asking my advice upon the question, Should ministes' wives adopt infant children? Would I advise them to do this kind of work. To some who were regarding this matter favorably, I answered, No; God would have you help your husband in his work. The Lord has not given you children of your own; His wisdom is not to be questioned. He knows what is best. Consecrate your powers to God as a Christian worker. You can help your husband in many ways. . . .{DG 251.1}
     "There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women. But the enemy would be pleased to have the women whom God could use to help hundreds binding up their time and strength on one helpless little mortal that requires constant care and attention."--5MR 325, 326.{DG 251.2}
     IN THE YEAR 1900 ELLEN WHITE PUBLISHED TESTIMONIES, VOLUME 6, WHICH INCLUDES A SECTION TITLED "THE CANVASSER A GOSPEL WORKER."  HERE THE AUTHOR STATES:{DG 251.3}
     "All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."--6T 322.{DG 251.4}
     FINALLY, IN SEPTEMBER 1903 ELLEN WHITE WROTE:
     "The Lord calls upon those connected with our sanitariums, publishing houses, and schools to teach the youth to do evangelistic work. Our time and energy must not be so largely employed in establishing sanitariums, food stores, and restaurants that other lines of work will be neglected. Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work should not be bound down to mechanical employment. {DG 251.5}
252
     "The youth should be encouraged to attend our training schools for Christian workers, which should become more and more like the schools of the prophets. These institutions have been established by the Lord, and if they are conducted in harmony with His purpose, the youth sent to them will quickly be prepared to engage in various lines of missionary work. Some will be trained to enter the field as missionary nurses, some as canvassers, and some as gospel ministers."--8T 229, 230.{DG 252.1}

     6. ELLEN WHITE MADE TWO STATEMENTS ABOUT HER OWN CALL TO SERVE THE LORD AS HIS MESSENGER. SHE DECLARED:{DG 252.2}
     "At the age of 78 I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that He will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping.{DG 252.3}
     "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry."--RH, July 26, 1906.{DG 252.4}

Now where in this last statement does she except "Credentials from anyone other then God???  You see nothing has changed in the churches, you still have people that want to progress to uncalled for activity that diverts away from the most important issues that EGW presents.

[Gregory]

Tinka:

Thank you for the documentation that you have provided that documents that in the early days, in the time of Ellen White, we had female clergy who were licensed.

Based upon the size of our denomination then, we probably had a greater per-centage of female clergy in that time than we do now.

[Bob Pickle]

Thank you for the documentation that you have provided that documents that in the early days, in the time of Ellen White, we had female clergy who were licensed.

Could we be specific as to who could rightly be called "clergy" from the list, and what their actual duties were? The reason I ask is that I looked up some of the names from the list and found that they had licenses but not credentials, and the license references were not specific. So they were not credentialed ministers.

Would a colporteur be considered part of the clergy?

[Gregory]

. . . they had licenses but not credentials,. . .

The above is correct.

At the time those licenses were granted, licenses were granted to clergy who were not ordained.  IOW, they were a lower level of clergy.

The historical record is clear that some served in positions that are normally filled by ordained clergy today.  E.G.  One licensed female served for a short period of time as a Conference President.  As I recall, it was the Iowa Conference.

Keep in mind that int he early days the ordained SDA clergy  did not spend all their time at a single home congregation.  Rather they visited congregations and engaged in evangelism.  You would likely find that some of the listed females assisted in evangelism as well as care of congregations.

[tinka]

Tinka:

Thank you for the documentation that you have provided that documents that in the early days, in the time of Ellen White, we had female clergy who were licensed.

Based upon the size of our denomination then, we probably had a greater per-centage of female clergy in that time than we do now.

If you look a little closer to the above Posting look to the right of each woman that was licenced.  You will see individual states --and what states decided to do this on their own. some what the problem now is trying to do it from the top down. I still say and foresee how many many problems can come from it. In fact this could be the very movement implanted by the same thing you see in the "political messy takeover right now in the highest scale ever." can you honestly think and say it is not???  What I saw on 3abn a couple of Sabbaths ago made me sick!  I thought it was a man at first until her head moved sideways and saw hair pinned tightly back

Also I don't see the word "Clergy" could it be a fact that there is still certain misunderstanding to just exactly what EGW is referring to over and over and over in what type of work is called for women to do. Even the word preaching like what is called for "Mary" that was brought in on this. Mary was not an ordained Preacher.  Mary was a preacher to give message of Jesus.

Preaching truth or speaking out does not mean it is not Gospel work along with all the duties she claims women should do if they have the time and opportunities to do it.
It does not include anywhere what this twist on words mean to "lay hand on ordination on women other the deaconesses.

[Gregory]

You will see individual states --and what states decided to do this on their own. some what the problem now is trying to do it from the top down.

It was generally done locally at that time.  Yes, there are exceptions, but generally that was done locally.

[Johann]

The story around Clarence C. Crisler's letter is an indication of this trend. I understand him as indicating the time was not yet when women are to be ordained as ministers, but that this time might well be in the future.

...

So it is with the ordination. Time will come, but when?

Johann,

To me he was simply trying to not draw any more of a conclusion from Ellen White's words than what those words clearly said. Therefore, I'm not sure he was saying that the time would come. He certainly didn't foreclose that possibility, but doesn't seem to say one way or the other, unless I've missed something.

To what extent does that depend on our previous view what we think it should say, when it actually points out a possibility? Could that be what you missed?

You have still not found a single statement where Ellen White says that women should not be ordained. Everything is just the opinion of others. Is that a platform on which we can base our condemnation of others?

Nobody has answered what I wrote here: There is not a single statement where Ellen White says that women should not be ordained. 

You have not provided a single quotation where Ellen White forbids the ordination of women.