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[Gregory]

Jim Walters, writing in an Adventist Today blog said:

General Conference President Ted Wilson's dramatic opposition to women's ordination at the last Fall Council of world church leaders has backfired, and an equality that has been obvious to the children of darkness for decades is now being embraced by the children of light.

I find it interesting that he attributes in part what some call “rebellion” to the present General Conference President.  For different reasons, I was coming to the conclusion that GC President, Ted Wilson may be the spark that ignited the female ordination fire.  Elder Wilson has an interesting background on this issue.

It is widely reported that women have been excluded from some levels of spiritual leadership under his leadership.  I do not know of the accuracy of this report.  I do know that it was at the time when he was co-chair of Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries; females were endorsed and began service as military chaplains.  This is an important fact.  If it is also true that females were generally excluded from some levels of spiritual leadership that were under his control it probably revels his personal beliefs, and makes a statement as to his leadership style.

On the issue of his leadership, it is widely reported that Wilson is committed to the advice Ellen White gave that leaders should not exercise “kingly power.”  In other words, Elder Wilson is seen by some to be a leader who does not attempt to force his personal beliefs and views upon an unwilling audience.  But, it should be noted that he is seen to be willing to exercise power in the selection of committees that make decisions.    He is believed to have shown that he can place people on committees and controlling boards who have views with which he concurs. 

I will suggest that it is from this perspective that astute leaders have decided that this is the time to bring the issue of female ordination to a decision.  To wait for a Biblical study committee and the next General Conference may very well be a time when people will be in place who are likely to believe that women should be restricted in spiritual leadership.

From the perspective of current events in this area, it very well may be the legacy of Elder Ted Wilson may be that he has some responsibility for setting events in motion that resulted in female ordination and opening up to the higher positions of spiritual leadership.

Let us watch how this develops.
 

[Johann]

I find this interesting, Gregory, that female Adventist chaplains were endorsed while Elder Ted Wilson was co-chair of the committee dealing with the question. In none of the six countries where I have worked for the Adventist Church do we have an Adventist chaplain, and this is why I am not familiar with things that concern the services of a chaplain. I suppose the reason you have Adventist chaplains in USA is because USA has no state religion and all denominations are supposed to be equal.

I have just one question in this connection: Is it possible to assign a chaplain into such service without being ordained? Do the services of a chaplain in the military forces include the ability to perform all the services that are usually done by a pastor?

Some of my schoolmates in America served as chaplains but I never found out if they served as interns before that and were then ordained before becoming chaplains.

This leads inevitably to the question if Ted Wilson, or someone else, ordained those female chaplains or if they could serve without being ordained?

[Gregory]

Johan:

A Federal Court in the Unilted States has ruled that it is illegal discrimination against females for the Federal government to require that Federal chaplains be ordained, due to the fact that some denominations do not ordain females; and that such illegally discriminates against denominations that do not ordain anyone.

As a result of this ruling, the U.S. military requires that denominations that endorse Federal chaplain certilfy on the Endorsement Form that the endorsed chaplain is authorized to fully perform the duties of a Federal chaplain.  It should be noted that the few duties that Commissioned female SDA clelrgy cannot perfom are not duties required of Federal chaplains.  Therefore, Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries is able the certify that its endorsed female chaplains are fully able to perform the duties of a Federal chaplain.  [NOTE:  While I have been specific to military chaplains, all Federal agencies that employ chaplains are, or have moved, to comply with the ruling of the Federal Court.  Therefore, in the Department of Veterans' Affairs, the employes me, the VA has established standards that allow female chaplains to be employed who are not ordained as long as they[ have been certifed as authorized to perform all of the duties of a VA Chaplain.  Other Federal agencies do the same.

No, the Federal agencies do not required that a Federal Chaplain be authorized to act as a pastor.  However, each Federal agency has its own requirements.  e.g.  The military and the VA have different requirements.  As a result, most military chaplains do not meet VA requirements and some VA chaplains do not meet military requirements.  However, some agencies require  extensive prior service in denominational position that is seen as belonging to clergy.  E.G.  The VA reqires three (3) years of experience in a clergy position, all of which must have occured after the Reciept of a Master of Divinity degree.

Internship:  Throughout SDA history and to the present, some men and women are ordained without serving in the so-called classit internship position.  However, this is more an exception than standard practice.  And, is has applied to both males and females.

Perhaps the classic example of this is A.S. White, EGW's grandson.  In earlier days of our foreign missionary work, it was common to ordain missonaries who had not had a classic internship.  I could give you some more recent examples, of both males and females, who only servied in their local Conference, who were ordained without a classic internship.  But, I do not wish to identify in a manner that could potentially ca[use their service and ordination to become a matter of public discussion.


 

[Gregory]

We have a female SDA Chaplain, in the U.S. Army, who has served in Afghanistan and may (?) be there now, I am not certain on that.

[Bob Pickle]

Jim Walters, writing in an Adventist Today blog said:

General Conference President Ted Wilson's dramatic opposition to women's ordination at the last Fall Council of world church leaders has backfired, and an equality that has been obvious to the children of darkness for decades is now being embraced by the children of light.

I find it interesting that he attributes in part what some call “rebellion” to the present General Conference President.  For different reasons, I was coming to the conclusion that GC President, Ted Wilson may be the spark that ignited the female ordination fire.  Elder Wilson has an interesting background on this issue.

Would this not be akin to the South blaming Lincoln for their rebellion?

[Johann]

Jim Walters, writing in an Adventist Today blog said:

General Conference President Ted Wilson's dramatic opposition to women's ordination at the last Fall Council of world church leaders has backfired, and an equality that has been obvious to the children of darkness for decades is now being embraced by the children of light.

I find it interesting that he attributes in part what some call “rebellion” to the present General Conference President.  For different reasons, I was coming to the conclusion that GC President, Ted Wilson may be the spark that ignited the female ordination fire.  Elder Wilson has an interesting background on this issue.

Would this not be akin to the South blaming Lincoln for their rebellion?

Is that the right comparison?

[Bob Pickle]

Jim Walters, writing in an Adventist Today blog said:

General Conference President Ted Wilson's dramatic opposition to women's ordination at the last Fall Council of world church leaders has backfired, and an equality that has been obvious to the children of darkness for decades is now being embraced by the children of light.

I find it interesting that he attributes in part what some call “rebellion” to the present General Conference President.  For different reasons, I was coming to the conclusion that GC President, Ted Wilson may be the spark that ignited the female ordination fire.  Elder Wilson has an interesting background on this issue.

Would this not be akin to the South blaming Lincoln for their rebellion?

Is that the right comparison?

There are some parallels, and there are some differences.

[Johann]

Jim Walters, writing in an Adventist Today blog said:

General Conference President Ted Wilson's dramatic opposition to women's ordination at the last Fall Council of world church leaders has backfired, and an equality that has been obvious to the children of darkness for decades is now being embraced by the children of light.

I find it interesting that he attributes in part what some call “rebellion” to the present General Conference President.  For different reasons, I was coming to the conclusion that GC President, Ted Wilson may be the spark that ignited the female ordination fire.  Elder Wilson has an interesting background on this issue.

It is widely reported that women have been excluded from some levels of spiritual leadership under his leadership.  I do not know of the accuracy of this report.  I do know that it was at the time when he was co-chair of Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries; females were endorsed and began service as military chaplains.  This is an important fact.  If it is also true that females were generally excluded from some levels of spiritual leadership that were under his control it probably revels his personal beliefs, and makes a statement as to his leadership style.

On the issue of his leadership, it is widely reported that Wilson is committed to the advice Ellen White gave that leaders should not exercise “kingly power.”  In other words, Elder Wilson is seen by some to be a leader who does not attempt to force his personal beliefs and views upon an unwilling audience.  But, it should be noted that he is seen to be willing to exercise power in the selection of committees that make decisions.    He is believed to have shown that he can place people on committees and controlling boards who have views with which he concurs. 

I will suggest that it is from this perspective that astute leaders have decided that this is the time to bring the issue of female ordination to a decision.  To wait for a Biblical study committee and the next General Conference may very well be a time when people will be in place who are likely to believe that women should be restricted in spiritual leadership.

From the perspective of current events in this area, it very well may be the legacy of Elder Ted Wilson may be that he has some responsibility for setting events in motion that resulted in female ordination and opening up to the higher positions of spiritual leadership.

Let us watch how this develops.
 

The greatest want of the world is the want of men—men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall. {Ed 57.3}   
But such a character is not the result of accident; it is not due to special favors or endowments of Providence. A noble character is the result of self-discipline, of the subjection of the lower to the higher nature—the surrender of self for the service of love to God and man. {Ed 57.4}

Political manipulation? I prefer a leader who is true to Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy and therefore willing to call women into the ministry, regardless of how a majority is swayed to vote by a political manipulation.

[Murcielago]

Is it possible that the world church could make a mistake and embrace error? What does it mean for a person if they believe the church to be misled on a matter? Can a person be held in any regard if they question a ruling of the GC? Can such a person retain the respect of proper members who don't question the church? Is it ever proper to question? Is so, under what circumstances?

[Johann]

Had an interesting meeting yesterday with a former Bible teacher and principal, who for years has been a very popular lecturer with the most conservative members of the church in various countries, although not always so popular among the less conservative.

This man of God was eager to share with me his latest discoveries. He had never known there was such a clear statement of Ellen White for ordaining both men and women preachers in her writings until he discovered it there himself.

I tried on him all the argument I have read both here and elsewhere to show him that she might not be referring to regular pastoral work. This could be literature
evangelists?

Dishonest people with preconceived catholic convictions will do anything to throw Ellen White down the drain on this issue, even if they cling to anything else in her writings. He was too conservative an Adventist to permit such catholic infiltration into our teachings, after he had read this Ellen White statement. With this statement of Ellen White there is no problem understanding the writings of Paul on this subject.

How long do we have to wait until a majority of our church will be honest enough to understand this?

[Johann]

When he discovered what Ellen White wrote about ordination more that a hundred years ago, this Bible teacher wondered why the Church has been so slow to act.

This sad reluctance of the church to act and do what is right has given the enemy of truth ample time to plant doctrines of discord among us, even at high level. Just look at this effort to make a further delay. The great enemy wants further possibilities to delay the coming of Jesus. He wants even the best of us to think they are doing the right thing, and tries to impress on them that they are receiving a special blessing, just like the false promise he gave to Eve.

[christined]

Johann, maybe I have missed where these statements from Ellen White are located.  Would you please list them again?  Thank you.

[Johann]

Johann, maybe I have missed where these statements from Ellen White are located.  Would you please list them again?  Thank you.

Here is a sample: “it is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.” (Review & Herald, January 15, 1901)

[Bob Pickle]

Johann, maybe I have missed where these statements from Ellen White are located.  Would you please list them again?  Thank you.

Here is a sample: “it is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.” (Review & Herald, January 15, 1901)

Johann, did you quote the wrong statement? This one says nothing about ordaining anyone.

And I believe I already gave you a quote about a minister who was preaching to a congregation, but who was not a pastor to that congregation because he did not like doing "pastoral work," which Ellen White described as "visiting" and "personal labor" (9MR 343, 344). To ignore that statement and to just keep quoting RH 1-15-1901 without making any attempt whatsoever to show that "pastors" in that statement must refer to the senior pastor of a local church makes no sense.

Plus, I've also raised the issue how in the very same year, as well as in 1902, Ellen White wrote the folks in Iowa and told them that as a general rule, the preachers were to go out from the churches into new fields (Ev 382; 1888 1762; 16 MR 346). It would make no sense, then, for her to say in that same year that both men and women were to be pastoring local churches rather than laboring in new fields.

[Johann]

Johann, maybe I have missed where these statements from Ellen White are located.  Would you please list them again?  Thank you.

Here is a sample: “it is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.” (Review & Herald, January 15, 1901)

Johann, did you quote the wrong statement? This one says nothing about ordaining anyone.

And I believe I already gave you a quote about a minister who was preaching to a congregation, but who was not a pastor to that congregation because he did not like doing "pastoral work," which Ellen White described as "visiting" and "personal labor" (9MR 343, 344). To ignore that statement and to just keep quoting RH 1-15-1901 without making any attempt whatsoever to show that "pastors" in that statement must refer to the senior pastor of a local church makes no sense.

Plus, I've also raised the issue how in the very same year, as well as in 1902, Ellen White wrote the folks in Iowa and told them that as a general rule, the preachers were to go out from the churches into new fields (Ev 382; 1888 1762; 16 MR 346). It would make no sense, then, for her to say in that same year that both men and women were to be pastoring local churches rather than laboring in new fields.

Here starts the avalanche Throwing out blurs about local churches versus laboring in the field. We have gone through that before to no avail. And also these blurs about senior pastors etc. In my early youth I never heard the term "senior pastor" used anywhere, neither have I ever read it in the writings of Ellen White. It could have been after 1960 I first heard the term "senior pastor" when I had been working in the ministry for a while.