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[Alex L. Walker]

Again,  I ask these questions:

1. Is it wrong for a homosexual to be ordained if they have never engaged in sex?

2. If so, what sin have they committed?

3. Is it fine to ordain those who have been divorced?

4. Is it ok, to ordain an unmarried man who is no longer a virgin?

The Apostle Paul makes it very clear that women should not be ordianed....but remain silent.

But what sin has a homosexual committed if he has never engaged in sex?

Why, say it is OK for women to be ordained but not a homosexual who has not committed a sin?

[Alex L. Walker]

OK. so here is my point in asking those questions.

If the argument of pro-women clergy is based on us adjusting to culture, then why not allow homosexuals to pastor?

Especially homosexuals who have not engaged in sex.

Also, why hasn't the Seventh Day Adventist Church adjusted to culture and moved their Sabbath to Sunday?

If we are going to pick and chose what we adjust to then should'nt we make it fair for all?

[Murcielago]

OK. so here is my point in asking those questions.

If the argument of pro-women clergy is based on us adjusting to culture, then why not allow homosexuals to pastor?

Especially homosexuals who have not engaged in sex.

Also, why hasn't the Seventh Day Adventist Church adjusted to culture and moved their Sabbath to Sunday?

If we are going to pick and chose what we adjust to then should'nt we make it fair for all?

Alex, I don't think that this debate in the SDA church is predicated solely on adjustment to culture. In the establishment of policy and doctrine all organizations, churches, pastors and leaders pick and choose. No church is complete in its adherence to the Bible. The criteria sets applied in deciding which Bible precepts to adopt and which ones to ignore are so vast as to simply be nebulous.

At this point in time the SDA church is working through the question of women's ordination, which Paul clearly does not forbid. He doesn't call it an abomination or otherwise make it a forbidden action. At this point in time, in my opinion,  there is insufficient interest or demand for the debate on homosexual advancement for it to be noticed and pursued. Women make up at least half of the church membership, but homosexuals are a very small minority.

[Alex L. Walker]

So lets make this crystal clear then: A homosexual who has not engaged in sex has commited absolutley no sin, correct?

Again, just because women make up a larger percent of the church how does it make it fair not to ordain homosexuals who have not engaged in sex?

Again, noone will answer my question if it is ok for a divorced man to be ordained. Why?

[Snoopy]

So lets make this crystal clear then: A homosexual who has not engaged in sex has commited absolutley no sin, correct?

No.  I disagree with that statement.  The homosexual who has not physically engaged in sex but who spends a great deal of time fantasizing about homosexual sex is not free of sin.  That's just my opinion.

[Alex L. Walker]

I would agree. But....just because a homosexual is attracted to the same sex does that make him a sinner?

Would you also agree that if a heterosexual male fantasized about having sex with a woman that they are also sinning?

[Gregory]

The SDA Church, in the past, has allowed celebate homosexuals to pastor churches.  It does not prohibit such today.  Whether or not we have any at this time who are pastors, I do not know.

Snoopy you said:

The homosexual who has not physically engaged in sex but who spends a great deal of time fantasizing about homosexual sex is not free of sin.

I suspect that you would say the same about a hetereosexual person who fantasizes about heterosexual sex?

I will simply suggest that we should treat both the same in regard to spiritual leadership.

[Snoopy]

The SDA Church, in the past, has allowed celebate homosexuals to pastor churches.  It does not prohibit such today.  Whether or not we have any at this time who are pastors, I do not know.

Snoopy you said:

The homosexual who has not physically engaged in sex but who spends a great deal of time fantasizing about homosexual sex is not free of sin.

I suspect that you would say the same about a hetereosexual person who fantasizes about heterosexual sex?

I will simply suggest that we should treat both the same in regard to spiritual leadership.

I was responding to Alex's specific question about homosexual behavior.

[Snoopy]

I would agree. But....just because a homosexual is attracted to the same sex does that make him a sinner?

Would you also agree that if a heterosexual male fantasized about having sex with a woman that they are also sinning?

OK - I see your point.  Is it a sin simply to have the attraction?  I would have to say no to that.

And yes, I would agree with your statement about the heterosexual male.  The same standard must apply to both.

But I would have to add that any individual who has successfully refrained from acting on any sinful urge is only in that position by the grace of God.  In other words, that argument is not unique to homosexuality.

[Gregory]

Snoopy, exactly.

[Alex L. Walker]

Now, to be fair and so people do not think I am trying to justify any actions of my own let me state this.

It is no secret that I dated another male before, but not during the period I was pastoring.

We never engaged in sex. Last year, I immediately resiged as pastor of my church when I formed another relationship with a male and that relationship continues to this day.

Now, did I do the biblical thing and step down? Or should I have remained a pastor and continued to engage in a homosexual relationship?

[Snoopy]

Now, to be fair and so people do not think I am trying to justify any actions of my own let me state this.

It is no secret that I dated another male before, but not during the period I was pastoring.

We never engaged in sex. Last year, I immediately resiged as pastor of my church when I formed another relationship with a male and that relationship continues to this day.

Now, did I do the biblical thing and step down? Or should I have remained a pastor and continued to engage in a homosexual relationship?

So you think the fact that you didn't engage in homosexual sex during the time you were pastoring excuses your current homosexual relationship?  I'm just trying to understand your position.

[Alex L. Walker]

Snoopy: I make no excuses. I believe I was clear when I stated at the time I was a pastor and was ordained I was not in a homosexual relationship, nor had I engaged in homosexual activity.

At the time I was pastoring, there was no romantic encouters and I had remained free from sex.

At this time I was fighting the issue of homosexuality, and believed at that time I could be cured of it.

It was later I formed another relationship and immediately resigned my church.

Why? Because while I do argue that homosexuality is not a choice. It is up to the homosexual whether or not they form a relationship.

I believe the Bible is very clear on practicing homosexuals to be pastors just as the apostle Paul is very clear on women clergy.

That is why I immediately resigned.

[Snoopy]

Snoopy: I make no excuses. I believe I was clear when I stated at the time I was a pastor and was ordained I was not in a homosexual relationship, nor had I engaged in homosexual activity.

At the time I was pastoring, there was no romantic encouters and I had remained free from sex.

At this time I was fighting the issue of homosexuality, and believed at that time I could be cured of it.

It was later I formed another relationship and immediately resigned my church.

Why? Because while I do argue that homosexuality is not a choice. It is up to the homosexual whether or not they form a relationship.

I believe the Bible is very clear on practicing homosexuals to be pastors just as the apostle Paul is very clear on women clergy.
That is why I immediately resigned.

Alex, I am in no position to judge you, and I apologize if I came off that way yesterday.  However, I vehemently disagree with your statement that I have bolded above.  The Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is a sin, and it is a sin regardless of whether or not one is a pastor.

[Gregory]

This is how I understand what Alex is saying:

While he was a congregational pastor he refrained from a sexual relationshlip with a male and he was celebate.   When he came to the place where he realized that he ws likely to begin a sexual relationshilp with a male, he chose to leave his position as a congregational pastor.

My position and on the assumption that I have understood Alex correctly:

1) We should commend him for taking the position of honor.
2) It is not our role to judge him, that role belongs to God.
3) The sins of a non-celebate homosexual are no worse than the sins of a non-celebate heterosexual.
4) Let us welcome him here and love hillm.