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[christian]

So, Mary and Martha were not disciples of Christ? Are you using a Bible where their story is omitted? How about all the females mentioned in the epistles of Paul? Have you forgotten Priscilla and Aquila and why should both names be there if only the males count?

Yep Mary and Martha were not disciples, thank goodness you can understand that, at least I think you can understand that. He did not send them out as he did the disciples either. Women did function in areas of ministry but there function was design to enhance their important roll as women. Why do you continue to say things to belittle the roll of women *no one ever said that women did not count* ordination is not the elixir to make women count. 

[Bob Pickle]

Regarding http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/husbandof%20one%20wife.pdf, of 8 possible interpretations of 1 Tim. 3:2 regarding elders being "husband of one wife," # 7 is:

(7) The elder/bishop must be a man. Women are excluded from that office, because the Greek term for husband found in the phrase “husband of one wife” (literally: “a man of one woman”) clearly refers to a male (an?r) only and is not as broad as the term anthropos which denotes human being whether male or female.

Of the less than eight pages of the document, footnotes appear on the last quarter of page 6 and onward. The discussion of the 8 views begins at the bottom of col. 1 of page 2. Thus we have about 4 1/4 pages discussing the various views, excluding footnotes and including the conclusion.

Of these 4 1/4 pages, over two pages are devoted to #7. This suggests to me that the paper's primary purpose is to address #7. In the conclusion, the discussion of #7 is summarized thusly:

The hotly debated question whether or not a woman can be an elder does not seem to be addressed. Apparently 1 Timothy 3:2 cannot be used to exclude women from the ministry of church leadership (bishop/elder)

What I think would be profitable is if we discuss the reasons given for the conclusion.

[Johann]

Apparently 1 Timothy 3:2 cannot be used to exclude women from the ministry of church leadership (bishop/elder)

What I think would be profitable is if we discuss the reasons given for the conclusion.

The quote by Ekkehardt Mueller is exactly what I have been saying. Is it invalid until we come to an agreement about the reason?

[Bob Pickle]

Apparently 1 Timothy 3:2 cannot be used to exclude women from the ministry of church leadership (bishop/elder)

What I think would be profitable is if we discuss the reasons given for the conclusion.

The quote by Ekkehardt Mueller is exactly what I have been saying. Is it invalid until we come to an agreement about the reason?

You will recall that I invited you to discuss the reasons, but you refused, which suggests that the reasons were either unconvincing or less than simple enough to follow. Without a discussion of the reasons, it is impossible to determine whether Mueller's conclusion is valid or not.

[Bob Pickle]

For one thing, Mueller's conclusion appears to contradict what was published in the Jan. 24, 1895 issue of Signs of the Times by presumably the editor, M. C. Wilcox:

QUESTION CORNER

No. 176. Who Should be Church Officers?

Should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren?

If by this is meant the office of elder, we should say at once, No. But there are offices in the church which women can fill acceptably, and oftentimes there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this than brethren, such offices, for instance as church clerk, treasurer, librarian of the tract society, etc., as well as the office of deaconess, assisting the deacons in looking after the poor, and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall to their lot. The qualifications for church elder are set forth in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:7-9. We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church. By this we do not mean to depreciate their labors, service, or devotion. The sphere of woman is equal to that of man. She was made a help meet, or fit, for man, but that does not mean that her sphere is identical to that of man’s. The interests of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God’s word were regarded.

That issue isn't on the GC's archive site, but the above is a non-EGW snippet found in the EGW ST articles. I copied the above from the "other site" which has gone mostly dead since Tommy's sentencing. What appears to be the last two posts included the above on March 31, and a comment to the March 31 post on June 2. I checked to verify that the above quote is in the EGW ST articles, but did not check the accuracy of every word.

I'm not saying that Wilcox was right in his assessment of 1 Tim. 3:1-7. But given the conflict between Wilcox and Mueller, we should go through the reasons Mueller gives and check them out, rather than just take Mueller's word for it.

[Johann]

Apparently 1 Timothy 3:2 cannot be used to exclude women from the ministry of church leadership (bishop/elder)

What I think would be profitable is if we discuss the reasons given for the conclusion.

The quote by Ekkehardt Mueller is exactly what I have been saying. Is it invalid until we come to an agreement about the reason?

You will recall that I invited you to discuss the reasons, but you refused, which suggests that the reasons were either unconvincing or less than simple enough to follow. Without a discussion of the reasons, it is impossible to determine whether Mueller's conclusion is valid or not.

I apologize to you, I presumed you would understand his arguments, and that is why I just gave you the link. If you cannot comprehend Mueller without someone else discussing all the details with you, we'll have to see how we can help you, Bob.

[Bob Pickle]

Apparently 1 Timothy 3:2 cannot be used to exclude women from the ministry of church leadership (bishop/elder)

What I think would be profitable is if we discuss the reasons given for the conclusion.

The quote by Ekkehardt Mueller is exactly what I have been saying. Is it invalid until we come to an agreement about the reason?

You will recall that I invited you to discuss the reasons, but you refused, which suggests that the reasons were either unconvincing or less than simple enough to follow. Without a discussion of the reasons, it is impossible to determine whether Mueller's conclusion is valid or not.

I apologize to you, I presumed you would understand his arguments, and that is why I just gave you the link. If you cannot comprehend Mueller without someone else discussing all the details with you, we'll have to see how we can help you, Bob.

Again you refuse to even try to summarize here Mueller's arguments, a failure that has nothing to do with whether or not I understand his arguments. I would suggest that in the future if you don't want to discuss a topic, don't bring it up.

To repeat, if Mueller's arguments are simple and conclusive, you ought to be able to summarize them here and discuss them. If you can't, then that right there inconclusively calls his arguments into question.

[Artiste]

The Seventh-day Adventist denomination accepts the ordination of women in China as most people who are aware of the situation there believe that God has clearly led in that direction.

Gregory, before you make such a dogmatic statement as to what the SDA denomination accepts, you might want to check out some of the matrilineal societies of China.

The women of the Mosuo's agricultural villages head the households, make business decisions, and own property, which they pass on to their matrilineal heirs.

In the unique Mosuo tradition called the walking marriage, women invite men to visit their rooms at night—and to leave in the morning.

Women may also change partners as often as they like, and promiscuity carries no social stigma.

"If you [father] a child with another woman, you can never be absolutely sure that the child really shares your genes," he said. "But if your sister has a child, you can be 100 percent sure that the kid shares some of your genes."

[Artiste]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090619-fathers-day-2009-no-fathers.html

[Artiste]

The women of the Mosuo's agricultural villages head the households, make business decisions, and own property, which they pass on to their matrilineal heirs.

I wonder if these women act as the pastors in their villages, also.

[Gregory]

Gregory, before you make such a dogmatic statement as to what the SDA denomination accepts, you might want to check out some of the matrilineal societies of China.

1) Yes, I was dogmatic and because I  was correct.  I have provided the source of my statement.  You may argue with that source if you wish, but you will be wrong.  Officially, the SDA denominaiton accepts females in China as ordained SDA ministers.  Yes, some SDAs do not.  But, the denomination officially does.

2) You reference to matrilineal societies in China has nothing to do with my statement as I did not reference such.

[Artiste]

Well, we are thankful that you have all knowledge, Gregory.

[Artiste]

Gregory, of course you will ignore what are very likely cultural influences in China, since it would impinge on your liberal, progressive Adventist viewpoint.

Again, such viewpoints are more acceptable over at Spectrum or Atoday.

[Gregory]

Ariste said:

Well, we are thankful that you have all knowledge, Gregory.

I  acknowledge your sarcasm.

You have been provided references to official SDA statements that the denomination recognizes females ordained in China.  You have every right to argue against those if you wish.  Instead of dealing with facts you chose to attack me with sarcasm and more.  That is not the way to win an argument.  If that is the best you can do you show to the world the weakenss of your position.

[Artiste]

Again, Gregory, you are tiptoeing carefully around the situation in which you are proclaiming your adherence, with Johann, to the liberal, progressive minority of Adventism.