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[Bob Pickle]

As reported by ADventist Today, in reference to the recent action of the Pacific Union Conference related to female ordination:

“You may not like the idea of ordaining women,” stated another retired denominational leader, “but you cannot honestly adhere to the principles that have always guided the Seventh-day Adventist Church and not allow a union conference to do this.” This will be a test case, he noted, of the principles that Ellen White presented to the 1901 GC Session when the concept of union conferences was first introduced.

To call this "rebelion" is not necesarly evident.

"The principles that have always guided the Seventh-day Adventist Church" include the principle that a GC Session has authority. Where does the PUC press release or the AToday article ever acknowledge that point, applying it to what the 1990 and 1995 GC Sessions actually voted? It seems to me that their failure to so cite reveals that there very much is a spirit of rebellion in the air.

[Johann]

For years after his death in 1962 M.L. Andreasen was by many regarded as the main solid conservative SDA theologian. I find these words from his autobiography quite interesting:

Then it dawned upon me that I had to use good sense, and I thanked God for a little good sense, at least. I was honest and wanted to do right. But I hadn't what you would do well to to learn, that when you find any statement, first of all, believe it. But remember that in many cases there are balancing statements. You may read, You must not eat this, or that, or the other. Believe it, but also look for those balancing statements, not to do away with the word, no, but to strengthen. Then you will find that you stand on good solid ground.

Quoted in Without Fear Or Favor, p. 54.

[Johann]

On the Northern German Union Vote for Women's Ordination
While the decision is in contradiction to global regulation, it should be noted that it was emphasized more than once that this is not to be considered as an act of disloyalty towards the world church, but as an act of conscience toward the gospel, albeit with a flavor of civil disobedience.

However, it must be noted that this is not just civil disobedience. It is rebellion. God has told us that GC Session votes have authority. The words above indicate that the Northern German Union has rejected that authority.

The Role of NAD

President Jackson . . . described the conferences and unions as doing what they feel God is calling them to do, and the NAD did not see its role as one of trying to stop them.  “We are not going to chastise them…we are not going to affirm them.”  Instead, President Jackson sees the role of the NAD as one of educating the North American constituencies.  He noted that it was clear at the 2011 year-end meeting that this question is not going away for NAD, and that its role, in addition to education, is to find more pathways for women in leadership.

Spectrum

If Jackson isn't going to do his job, he should resign. He is not the man for the job.

For one thing, he has himself admitted that the NAD is but part of the GC. What you quote above indicates that he has decided not to urge conferences and unions in the NAD to follow the policies of the very organization of which he is a part. If he can't support his own organization's policies, he shouldn't be NAD president.

Just to remind you what has been said.

[Johann]

ONE IN CHRIST

Check this site and sign the petition - if you agree that we are ONE IN CHRIST

http://www.one-in-christ.com/petition/

[Bob Pickle]

Johann,

This is another example, Johann, in my opinion, of the lack of a sound biblical or SoP basis for ignoring the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes. What does being one in Christ have to do with the abolition of the distinction between the roles of men and women in the church and home? Since we are all one in Christ, can men now have babies? If not, then the roles God Himself established at the foundations of the earth are still in place.

[Johann]

Johann,

This is another example, Johann, in my opinion, of the lack of a sound biblical or SoP basis for ignoring the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes. What does being one in Christ have to do with the abolition of the distinction between the roles of men and women in the church and home? Since we are all one in Christ, can men now have babies? If not, then the roles God Himself established at the foundations of the earth are still in place.

I think we also need to take te following into consideration:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/husbandof%20one%20wife.pdf

Here, in my opinion, the General Conference Biblical Research Institute has made it clear that  the main arguments against the ordination of women are not Biblical.

So it seems to me that some of the officers have dealt politically with the issue by granting such important men to our church as Doug Batchelor, Pipim, Damsteegt, and even Bob Pickle, respite until they grasp the importance of that document.

Can you really blame the people who are eager to do the right thing, according to the findings of the General Conference Biblical Research Institute? Is it your honest belief that any statement by Ellen White can be rightfully used to prevent people from doing what is right?

[Bob Pickle]

Johann,

This is another example, Johann, in my opinion, of the lack of a sound biblical or SoP basis for ignoring the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes. What does being one in Christ have to do with the abolition of the distinction between the roles of men and women in the church and home? Since we are all one in Christ, can men now have babies? If not, then the roles God Himself established at the foundations of the earth are still in place.

I think we also need to take te following into consideration:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/husbandof%20one%20wife.pdf

Here, in my opinion, the General Conference Biblical Research Institute has made it clear that  the main arguments against the ordination of women are not Biblical.

How many individuals approved the document in question's conclusions?

"The hotly debated question whether or not a woman can be an elder does not seem to be addressed."

So says the paper. Could you please explain for us how, as the paper concludes, elders being "husband of one wife" does not refer to men being elders?

[Johann]

Johann,

This is another example, Johann, in my opinion, of the lack of a sound biblical or SoP basis for ignoring the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes. What does being one in Christ have to do with the abolition of the distinction between the roles of men and women in the church and home? Since we are all one in Christ, can men now have babies? If not, then the roles God Himself established at the foundations of the earth are still in place.

I think we also need to take te following into consideration:

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/husbandof%20one%20wife.pdf

Here, in my opinion, the General Conference Biblical Research Institute has made it clear that  the main arguments against the ordination of women are not Biblical.

How many individuals approved the document in question's conclusions?

"The hotly debated question whether or not a woman can be an elder does not seem to be addressed."

So says the paper. Could you please explain for us how, as the paper concludes, elders being "husband of one wife" does not refer to men being elders?

I have a pretty good notion the committee agreed to publish this paper, and those papers are generally regarded as expressing the views of our church. Are you dissatisfied a certain person was not a member?

From what context did you make your quotation?

If you need an answer to that question I refer you back to the paper, which, in my opinion, answers that question quite adequately.

[Johann]

ONE IN CHRIST

Check this site and sign the petition - if you agree that we are ONE IN CHRIST

http://www.one-in-christ.com/petition/

It is such an encouragement to read some of the comments a number of those signing have written. Expressions of love and faith and gratitude - and HOPE. That is what we experience when we know we are following the Lord.

Close to 2.000 have signed this petition by now. In comparison less than 500 have signed the petition against the ordination of women.

Seventh-day Adventists understand the importance of following the Lord's will and honor the example of the Lord's appointed witness, Ellen G White.

[Bob Pickle]

I have a pretty good notion the committee agreed to publish this paper, and those papers are generally regarded as expressing the views of our church.

If no survey was done, and no discussion was had at a GC Session on the matter, I fail to see how we can say that the church as a whole believes that elders being the husband of one wife does not refer to elders being men.

If you need an answer to that question I refer you back to the paper, which, in my opinion, answers that question quite adequately.

I want to hear you articulate the explanation given. I want to hear you repeat the argument and say that you agree with it. If the explanation cannot be repeated easily and confidently by those who read it, then that raises questions about the argument.

[Johann]

I have a pretty good notion the committee agreed to publish this paper, and those papers are generally regarded as expressing the views of our church.

If no survey was done, and no discussion was had at a GC Session on the matter, I fail to see how we can say that the church as a whole believes that elders being the husband of one wife does not refer to elders being men.

If you need an answer to that question I refer you back to the paper, which, in my opinion, answers that question quite adequately.

I want to hear you articulate the explanation given. I want to hear you repeat the argument and say that you agree with it. If the explanation cannot be repeated easily and confidently by those who read it, then that raises questions about the argument.

What can I do about your failures, Bob? Since it is impossible for you to read and understand what the General Conference Biblical Research Institute has written in response to the teachings of Pipim and Damsteegt, do you need the assistance of a good female who has gone to school and learned how to read?

You seem unwilling to read it unless some kind of a survey be done. Are the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church based on surveys rather than Bible study? If this is the case it is new to me. And then you also want a vote on it. But you expect everyone else to follow some claims made by certain people who were not members of the Adventist Biblical Research Institute, nor has any vote been taken on the claims of these documents.

With all of your predisposed animosity against the truth of this document you expect anyone to give you a short gist of a six page document as a response to the animosity you already show against it?

I have my serious doubt that the Creator of mankind, who has stated, "Come now, and let us reason together", works like that. Go back to the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and see how they reasoned together at the early Sabbath Conferences.

[Johann]

°Just to make it clear: The SDA church has never voted against ordaining women, or this paper, which you are so reluctant to read, Bob, would have disappeared from the material provided by the General Conference, if this had been the case.

The votes taken until now have only been delaying tactics because of the tremendous pressure and propaganda of certain individuals like Pipim. The General Conference still provides their material that justifies the ordination of women.

[Bob Pickle]

What can I do about your failures, Bob? Since it is impossible for you to read and understand what the General Conference Biblical Research Institute has written in response to the teachings of Pipim and Damsteegt, do you need the assistance of a good female who has gone to school and learned how to read?

You're being unreasonable. I read and understood the paper before I made that post. My point is that if you can't clearly and confidently articulate the short explanation given in that paper, it is likely that the explanation is unsound.

You seem unwilling to read it unless some kind of a survey be done. Are the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church based on surveys rather than Bible study?

You're the one who made the claim that the ideas in the document represent the views of the church, not me. If no one has done a survey of the church, or no GC Session vote has been taken, then your claim is unsupportable.

I again ask you to give here the short explanation in that paper regarding why "husband of one wife" does not refer to male elders being the husband of one wife.

[Bob Pickle]

°Just to make it clear: The SDA church has never voted against ordaining women ....

Hate to say it, Johann, but your statement above is either false or a lie. In 1990 and 1995, the GC Session voted against women's ordination. It's clearly so stated in the minutes of those sessions.

And that right there is one of the reasons I oppose women's ordination, because its proponents repeatedly resort to promoting falsehoods in order to win their case. A righteous cause need not rely upon falsehood.

[christian]

Manfred Lemke came originally from Switzerland and he was a university lecturer in electronic communication for teachers when he became a Seventh-day Adventist. A few years later he intended to audit some Bible classes at Newbold College to learn more about the teachings of our church, but he was soon encouraged to satisfy the requirements for a Masters degree in theology. Today he is a pastor and director of communications in the Iceland Conference. He sent me this recent Sabbath sermon and gave me permission to abbreviate it and translate it into English.

Clearing unexploded bombs in Scripture
1 Tim 2:8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
Each year more than 5000 unexploded bombs are found in Germany. Most of them are uncovered in connection with new constructions. They are underneath schools, hospitals, by highways or in the open countryside. It is estimated that 100,000 bombs are still in the ground waiting to be uncovered.
In recent years teams of specialists take care of these bombs, but they do not always succeed. There are increased discoveries in metropolitan areas. Complications increase with age as the powder becomes unpredictable.
Germany is not the only explosive area in the world; there are many infected areas which cannot be entered without risking life or limbs. The Bible was written before such bombs were invented, and yet some of its contents is as explosive as the unexploded bombs in Berlin.
One of these areas deals with men and women. Here is the verse again in context:
1 Timothy 2:8-15 8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
This text has often been used to explain why women are neither to be ministers nor bishops. How are we to understand this text? Haven‘t we already discovered its final meaning ?
Considering how often I see a new light when I read a Bible text again, this could also apply to First Timothy. The letters to Timothy and Titus are usually called the Pastoral Epistles. They are all addressed to individuals rather than churches. Timothy was then working in Ephesus.  His father was Greek but his mother a Jew. Timothy was a timid person and weak, and yet a good teacher and minister.
In his letter Paul is helping his friend and coworker in his difficult task of being a leader. This is a private letter between two men of God written more than 1900 years ago. Timothy was the leader of a small church in a town and country where other gods were worshipped. Ephesus was known for its Artemis temple. And we will meet Artemis later in again.
Now I want to tell you of something quite different. Last time I attended a media session in our church I was seated at a table with an Egyptian, an Israeli, and a Syrian. These were all Adventists and one is a former fellow student at Newbold College. It was a supper I will never forget. All three neighbors were defaming each other constantly. With great gestures they would call each other „infidels“and much more with their eyes wide open and sweat pouring from their brows.
I sat there like a convict. I tried to participate with smiles and a few unsuccessful remarks, but it really seemed like a storm was passing by with nothing I could do. I left the table confused, yet my friend Salom seemed to sense it and followed me. He convinced me this was their natural way of conversation. They are the best of friends and this way of conversing is just a sign of their friendship.
To me this was a cultural chock. How are Paul, Timothy, and all of the other men  talking to each other? Could it be that in his conversation with a personal  friend about a strange behavior, he might express himself in a way that is quite different from what we know and are used to?
All of this is but some preliminary remarks. Now let’s get to the task at hand. Verse 8 is easy:  8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
The word translated “disputing” is an interesting word. Dialogismos refers here to disputing and questioning if the other person is telling the truth. Disputing and anger was what I thought I experienced at the supper table. Here it was between friends. How would it be among enemies?

To me it appears like Paul is here asking men to leave off their male chauvinism, machismo, and quarrels and rather pray in humility.

Then Paul talks about women: He is continuing the same subject. He wants women to correct their old habits and rather have their minds set on what is important: 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
Rather than having their minds set on outer appearance [margaritas] Paul speaks of good deeds. Back in those days there was no social security or insurance, so the wealthy people were responsible for those who were facing financial worries. Time and means provided to help the poor was called “good deeds”.

Paul is here reminding both men and women not to remain in their usual state of mind. Males should not amuse themselves with argumentation nor should females mess around with their ornaments. They should rather consider what is important for God.
Now we have the next sentence: 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

Notice it says a woman should learn, but she should not just learn to achieve power and control. Now let us consider Artemis again. She was a female who ruled over all and everyone among the pagans in Ephesus. This was what should not take place among the Christian women. They were to learn and get an education in humility.
I have considered every word in the Greek text. This gives me the understanding that Paul states the women are to be educated undisturbed and in submission to the Lord.
Now we reach verse 12: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Some find in this text a culmination in humiliation of women. Females are not even permitted to use nice clothing. They are nothing but the daughters of Eve with whom all the misfortunes of the world started. They’d rather be quiet and be satisfied with having children. Is this the purpose of this letter?
Could it be that God intended one half of humanity to only serve this purpose? That could never be true. Who were the first witnesses of the Resurrection? Women – they were the first „apostolos“.
What does Paul state in Romans 16:
Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.
Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Here we have deacons and apostles. And there is even more explosive powder in 1 Corinthians where we just quote half a sentence:
1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman who prays or prophesies. . .
So, what is the woman to do? Keep quiet? Then we have
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Where is the distinction? Is the woman second rate under the male? One of the strongest examples in found in Luke 10.
Martha was busy in the kitchen where people would say she was doing the work of a woman. She was sullen towards Mary. Why?
Luke 10:39  She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said
Along with the other disciples Mary from Bethany is sitting at the feet of the Master teacher. She is learning what she will be teaching others later. Her sister Martha was angry because Mary was breaking all the rules which governed what she was supposed to do as a woman. Rather than doing her duties in the kitchen she was performing the duties of an apostle.
What did Jesus say about this? Did he tell Mary to follow the rules in agreement which all the proper authorities? 41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “You are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Now back to verse 12: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
What is Paul dealing with? Considering the situation in Ephesus, where all the pagan priests were women, I‘d suggest the following translation:
„I do not think women should now display a new authority over men which is similar to the way men have been ruling over women.“ Paul wants to make sure Christians do not follow the pagans. Christianity was to be entirely different than the worship of Artemis. Just like Jesus teaches in Luke 10 women should have the opportunity to learn what they need, without displaying a superiority in the spirit of the Artemis worshipers. The purpose is much rather that both men and women have the possibilities to develop their own Spiritual gifts to learn and teach.
The final question is why Paul refers to Adam and Eve here? Who was it that had received a full explanation the purpose of the trees in the garden of Eden? That was Adam. Therefore Adam sinned fully knowing what he was doing. Eve was not as well informed. Paul is emphasizing the importance of women being better informed. He is using this as an example of the results of ignorance.
Why does Paul mention births? It is clear that he does not regard them to be a punishment. Birth is probably the most difficult, the most painful and most dangerous moment in the life of a woman. But it is not to replace a punishment. A new child is born adding to the creation of God in this world.
In the beginning I mentioned bombs that have not exploded. They are dangerous and unpredictable. There is still much in the Bible which is difficult to understand, but one thing is certain: God will never increase injustice among those who believe in Him.
Let‘s join hands and disconnect those bombs that prevent us from understanding the justice of God as revealed in His Word.
Amen

Johann, you are obviously smoking something. What is you big issue with women ordination? Because women aren't ordain they are somehow below men? Why did Jesus only pick men diciples? Man I have never seen someone misinterpret the scriptures as much as you after quoting them.