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[Bob Pickle]

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

And Mary was never ordained, made one of the 12, sent to pastor a local church. She didn't even chair the council of Acts 15.

Similarly, not ordaining women today or sending them to pastor local churches does not hinder them from declaring the news of the resurrection.

As far as your derogatory comments based on half a sentence is Damsteegt's conversion story go, how is that not evil surmising?

[tinka]

The laying on of hands for deaconesses and Bible workers were what she was referring to as acceptable and that is still done in the church.

Ordaining women elders was frowned on also. But that is what some women were pushing buttons to get the movement going and into the front door way back when I witnessed that pushing until they did it and most did not accept it and left church, Just the word "Elder" was given to men preachers. Elder meaning masculine in this sense.

Maybe the light that came on was to beware! The light that comes to individuals is an understanding of exact words stating something new that was missed or has been overlooked. But those words are not there.

Where does 1 Tim 3 ever give an impression of "ordaining women preachers"?

Dreams are a funny thing and from whence they come from.

I've had them and was positive that would come to be but realize many years later how when Devil has hard time to physically make you move he also causes in dreams to confuse.

I had a dream once with believing all was so real where another farm was to be purchased to enhance a business. The realness was signing papers and shown the land was rich in business as we were in. In the dream I walked the property and saw things that I could not have seen because I never actually walked the property that was there.  I felt for sometime that was going to happen but later with the turn of events it would have been disastrous. For some time I could not understand something that was so real that did not happen. This has happened a couple of time in other situations, but 3 times the dreams were correct and an up lifting did happen when I knew it really was for real and not false.

Discernment from right source is a thing to not be deceived on.

to me your dream is a stance for the "movement of which is not important other then great controversy to direct attention to a very soon coming to prepare for". These "New Age" "New Directions" were made plain long ago by the chosen "Inspired one" EGW.  I do not think there will be another to confuse what already had been written.

 I ventured into another church yesterday that had not been in for 15 years for an old time get together and "wondered how in the world did this happen"? Proof of progression of liberalism and everything against SP.

It gives a sick sick feeling right into the pits. and I anger at the devil taking em out for what they were once privileged to know of God's will. At first look it seems impossible to ever get it back. Can that happen?? Guess it could as all things possible through God.

I wonder how many churches are in this state. So with this question in mind -can there be any doubt of such movements happening and for what stupid reasons as "women wanting Credentials". when the Lord is about to appear other then cause of controversy and confusion."Women preaching Credentials" lol. God holds the book of Credentials for works. Don't they know what causes "vanity" If they want Preaching Credentials that bad (other then teaching from their heart) send and get one out of a magazine cause that is what their"movement" is worth.

[princessdi]

Ok?!!!  That is just about right, Snoopy.

Now, the real question is what changed after the death of EGW and these women that the church no longer allows women to pastor When they obviously had no problem with it before?

Increasing numbers of egotistical men??

[tinka]

Ok?!!!  That is just about right, Snoopy.

Now, the real question is what changed after the death of EGW and these women that the church no longer allows women to pastor When they obviously had no problem with it before?

Increasing numbers of egotistical men??

Nothing changed, your just following instead of reading the whole thing in right context for your self.
 

[Gregory]

Bob said:

On what basis are "commissioned ministers" authorized to baptize if it is not by virtue of being a local elder? An unordained minister can only baptize if they are elected and currently serving as a local church elder. I don't see how a commissioned minister can be any different, especially since they can only baptize within their own district.

I am not 100% certain.  However, it appears to me that Bob may be correct.  Well, I have never claimed to be 100% correct. 

[Johann]

Dear Friends,

Ida and I just got home from a trip where we had been offered a stay at a mountain resort near Mt. Hekla, the most active volcano in Iceland. I did not realize that some of my own ancestors lived on this farm and also Snorri Sturluson, the most famous writer and historian of Northern Europe during the Middle Ages.

Our first stop on the way home was at the  local country school, way out in the country with no town in the vicinity. In find the librarian is a young mother from Switzerland. She and her Icelandic husband are sheep farmers. The door was open and she did not mind me coming in although the library should have closed 45 minutes ago. As soon as I had told her of my interests, just at the snap of a finger she had found a list of my ancestors in that community during the past 4 centuries. Learning how to count their sheep teaches them other things as well!

We drive on taking pictures of mountains, glaciers, volcanoes, water falls and the spring foliage when suddenly snow whitens the ground for a moment. We are in the arctic region. Soon we get to our own local library. Today there is a librarian I have never seen before. Not our neighbor but an oriental lady. I was amazed how interested and helpful she was. As soon as she sees me writing "Celtic Christianity" on the library computer she exhibits the greatest smile.

- I have just attended a course in that area, she exclaims. And there is no end to the information she is able to supply, starting out by giving me the name of her teacher, a historian, and an archaeologist, and a writer.

To begin with it has now been established that 63% of the initial female inhabitants of Iceland were Celtic women. This new discovery is generating a new interest in studying the life and religion of the early Celts, people who accepted the basic Christianity of the Apostles, migrating through southern Europe to the north penetrating Ireland and probably northern Scotland.

Now that I have links to much material I will be doing quite a bit of research.

What interests certain scholars in particular now is how the Celts were forced to abandon keeping the Sabbath by the Roman Catholics who got to Ireland later on.

There are also strong indications the Celts still believed the words of the Apostle that there is no distinction between male and female and made this real in their Christianity, permitting women to preach. At least one Ph. D. scholar, who is a frequent speaker at the most conservative gatherings of Adventist in Northern Europe,  believes they ordained women for the ministry until the Roman Catholics prevented this along with introducing Sunday worship.

More on this later.

[Johann]

Ok?!!!  That is just about right, Snoopy.

Now, the real question is what changed after the death of EGW and these women that the church no longer allows women to pastor When they obviously had no problem with it before?

Increasing numbers of egotistical men??

Recent historic research is reaching a similar conclusion.

[Johann]

O.K.  I did not know.  You were justified in bringing it up.

I would disagree. Snatching a line from someone's conversion story that shows how shallow the Catholic meetings were, in order to damage the reputation of a minister and scholar, rather than presenting something of substance to counter that minister or scholar's ideas, is wrong.

Unfortunately much worse things are happening. I have just been informed that one of our active Bible teachers has written a doctoral dissertation where he has given him, as well as some others on both sides an "F" for their handling of Scripture. I'd say this could terminate the basis of the votes taken by the General Conference.

I am getting more information on this and I will study this book.

[Johann]

Bob said:

On what basis are "commissioned ministers" authorized to baptize if it is not by virtue of being a local elder? An unordained minister can only baptize if they are elected and currently serving as a local church elder. I don't see how a commissioned minister can be any different, especially since they can only baptize within their own district.

I am not 100% certain.  However, it appears to me that Bob may be correct.  Well, I have never claimed to be 100% correct. 

This might seem very important, just like knowing which is more important, the horse or the buggy

[Johann]

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

And Mary was never ordained,

I'd like to see you document this.

[Johann]

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

As far as your derogatory comments based on half a sentence is Damsteegt's conversion story go, how is that not evil surmising?

In which way did I make it any worse than what he told himself? I faulted the Catholics for how they were getting the young soldiers to attend their services, and what influences this might have on their minds.  What is it you are defending with your reaction?

[Bob Pickle]

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

As far as your derogatory comments based on half a sentence is Damsteegt's conversion story go, how is that not evil surmising?

In which way did I make it any worse than what he told himself?

Did he get that inclination while attended the Catholic chapel when he was in the military and dancing was part of the service? Young females do yield a magic power on the thinking of young men.

After graduating as an aeronautical engineer, he was drafted into the Dutch Air Force. Essentially a pacifist by nature, he was greatly repulsed by the movies of killing he was forced to watch--how to best inflict a mortal wound, etc. As part of the training, he was obliged to attend meetings organized by either the Protestant or Catholic chaplains. Catholics usually sponsored a dance with girls; Protestants, group discussions. He attended both but was more attracted to the discussion groups.

There is nothing in the above quote from Damsteegt's personal testimony about his conversion that calls into question his character. Your comment does, in my opinion.

And Mary was never ordained,

I'd like to see you document this.

I agree that my statement is an argument from silence. On the other hand, I'd like to see you document that Mary was ordained.

[Bob Pickle]

There are also strong indications the Celts still believed the words of the Apostle that there is no distinction between male and female and made this real in their Christianity, permitting women to preach.

At what point does it become deceptive to cite Gal. 3 in support of women's ordination while ignoring the other statements about the role of women made by the same author in the NT?

At least one Ph. D. scholar, who is a frequent speaker at the most conservative gatherings of Adventist in Northern Europe,  believes they ordained women for the ministry until the Roman Catholics prevented this along with introducing Sunday worship.

More on this later.

I am interested in the identity of the PhD scholar you refer to.

"For the pagan Celt, the essence of the universe and all its creativity was female and they left permanent traces of a culture in which women were the spiritual and moral pivot" (http://www.pabay.org/skyeviews.html).

It will be interesting to see if any traces of what you suggest can be solidly linked to NT Christianity, rather than to an absorption of pagan Celtic culture.

[Murcielago]

On what basis are "commissioned ministers" authorized to baptize if it is not by virtue of being a local elder? An unordained minister can only baptize if they are elected and currently serving as a local church elder. I don't see how a commissioned minister can be any different, especially since they can only baptize within their own district.

Does the Bible make a case for the geo-political aspect of baptism, and does it specify election as a prerequisite to unordained ministers baptizing, or are these points that were invented later and accepted as tradition?

[Murcielago]

It will be interesting to see if any traces of what you suggest can be solidly linked to NT Christianity, rather than to an absorption of pagan Celtic culture.

The role of culture that has evolved into dogma is quite interesting. Food, for example. There are many Adventists who teach and enforce vegetarianism as Christian dogma. Some do the same with clothing styles, the use of makeup... And worship style is a highly divisive issue in which cultures and sub-cultures attempt to demonize styles other than their own as offensive to God. Music is another example. Drums, electric guitars, and styles of music that offend based on personal culture and taste are put forth as evil and unfit for use in church or in praise to God when there is absolutely no Biblical basis for their stance. The Catholic Church is honest enough to admit that they hold tradition as having God's mandate when it suits their purpose. But much of Protestantism (including many Adventists) has fully embraced the concept, but refuses to to be honest about it.