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[Johann]

Johann:  You can do much better than to mention Roman Catholic services  and dancing women in connection with a respected religious leader.

If you have facts to back something up, give them.  In the mean time your comment comes accross as very unfair.

Case in point:  Would it be fair to raise the same kind of comment about you and relate it to the reputation that some have given to women of Iceland?

After graduating as an aeronautical engineer, he was drafted into the Dutch Air Force. Essentially a pacifist by nature, he was greatly repulsed by the movies of killing he was forced to watch--how to best inflict a mortal wound, etc. As part of the training, he was obliged to attend meetings organized by either the Protestant or Catholic chaplains. Catholics usually sponsored a dance with girls; Protestants, group discussions. He attended both but was more attracted to the discussion groups.

http://www.andrews.edu/~damsteeg/page2/page2.html

I would never have brought it up if he had not divulged it in the biography.

[Gregory]

O.K.  I did not know.  You were justified in bringing it up.

[Murcielago]

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

GC and NAD Working Policy states that the GC Session is the highest authority under God. I don't have a problem with that.

The Bible and SoP are inspired by God, and in my view thus take precedence over a GC Session.

The difficulty for the women's ordination side is that they can't provide a solid biblical reason for the practice. For example, the idea that Peter's statements on the priesthood of all believers means that we should ordain women ignores the fact that peter is quoting Ex. 19:6, and all believers were not ordained as priests in OT times.

If a GC Session were to vote that we should now keep Sunday, I would choose not to rebel against the authority of God, and thus would not obey that GC Session vote.

So you would assert that your understanding and interpretation of the Bible and SoP would outweigh the authority of the GC in session? Doesn't the SoP state that you are wrong, as per the quotes from the Church Manual regarding the authority of the church?

[Murcielago]

Bob, the following is a quote from page 31 of the SDA Church Manual, and come under the heading "General Conference Highest Authority"

In the Church today the General Conference in session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between sessions, is the highest ecclesias- tical authority in the administration of the Church. The General Conference Executive Committee is authorized by its Constitution to create subordinate organizations with authority to carry out their roles. Therefore all subordi- nate organizations and institutions throughout the Church will recognize the General Conference in session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between sessions, as the highest ecclesiastical authority, under God, among Seventh-day Adventists.
When differences arise in or between churches and conferences or in- stitutions, appeal to the next higher constituent level is proper until it reaches an Annual Council of the General Conference Executive Committee or the General Conference in session. Between these meetings, the General Conference Executive Committee constitutes the body of final authority on all questions. The committee’s decision may be reviewed at a General Conference session or an Annual Council. When organizations review de- cisions of other organizations, they do not assume responsibility for the lia- bilities of any other organization.
“I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be fol- lowed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body.”— 9T 260.

[Murcielago]

As to the OT quote from Peter, would you agree that we tend to pick and choose OT laws to obey, adhering to some and rejecting others as they confirm or deny our preferences?

[Johann]

I do not have the exact quotation right at hand, but as I recall Martin Luther explained the priesthood of all believers as meaning that if a group of believers happen to be located together but far from any other group of people and they have no priest among them, then any individual among them can function as a priest and perform any duty normally assigned to an ordained priest. As far as I recall the wording as used by Martin Luther indicates no distinction here by gender.

[Johann]

O.K.  I did not know.  You were justified in bringing it up.

It is a fascinating story, Gregory. Here we have this Dutch boy whose mountain-climbing father is killed and his sister dies, leaving but the mother and son. Somewhere he gets hold of a book by Spicer and is taken by the new doctrines. Then he has this stint in the air force where he attends both Catholic and Protestant services. Before leaving the air force he is reminded of the Adventist doctrines.

Seems like the Jesuits knew what they were doing by sending girls with the Catholic Father to the isolated boys hungry for adventure. So Damsteeg leaves the girls at the Catholic services and starts studying theology at Newbold College. Since he mentions these girls in his biography they must have left an impact on him which influenced his understanding of Scripture. How could such depraved girls ever have any positive Spiritual influence over men in the Church? Could you think of this girl he danced with some months ago being ordained as a priest?

Unthinkable!

Lets bring our minds back a couple of thousand years. What is the most important message in the world both then and today?

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

Unfortunately I have personal knowledge of some Seventh-day Adventist pastors and elders who have acted as if their elevated male ordination status entitled them to deprive their daughters or granddaughters of their virginity. The ordination privileges are seeping through from the Catholic Church even into the Adventists to such an extent that our church needs a great revival and reformation.

Damsteeg seems to be an honest man. Perhaps the Lord would not permit him to distribute his writings and ideas without revealing under what influences he started his studies of Scripture? Is this the key we need to understand the deceptive influences this man has had on our leaders?

His influence seems so widespread that even many of our devout men and leaders are still prostrate in their devotion to this important Roman Catholic doctrine.

If any of this applies to you then see the outstretched hands of Jesus Christ, ready to give you the restoration He gave to Mary.

This is the time we need to sing and pray:

Precious Lord take my hand. . .

[Snoopy]

O.K.  I did not know.  You were justified in bringing it up.

It is a fascinating story, Gregory. Here we have this Dutch boy whose mountain-climbing father is killed and his sister dies, leaving but the mother and son. Somewhere he gets hold of a book by Spicer and is taken by the new doctrines. Then he has this stint in the air force where he attends both Catholic and Protestant services. Before leaving the air force he is reminded of the Adventist doctrines.

Seems like the Jesuits knew what they were doing by sending girls with the Catholic Father to the isolated boys hungry for adventure. So Damsteeg leaves the girls at the Catholic services and starts studying theology at Newbold College. Since he mentions these girls in his biography they must have left an impact on him which influenced his understanding of Scripture. How could such depraved girls ever have any positive Spiritual influence over men in the Church? Could you think of this girl he danced with some months ago being ordained as a priest?

Unthinkable!

Lets bring our minds back a couple of thousand years. What is the most important message in the world both then and today?

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

Unfortunately I have personal knowledge of some Seventh-day Adventist pastors and elders who have acted as if their elevated male ordination status entitled them to deprive their daughters or granddaughters their virginity. The ordination privileges are seeping through from the Catholic Church even into the Adventists to such an extent that our church needs a great revival and reformation.

Damsteeg seems to be an honest man. Perhaps the Lord would not permit him to distribute his writings and ideas without revealing under what influences he started his studies of Scripture? Is this the key we need to understand the deceptive influences this man has had on our leaders?

His influence seems so widespread that even many of our devout men and leaders are still prostrate in their devotion to this important Roman Catholic doctrine.

If any of this applies to you then see the outstretched hands of Jesus Christ, ready to give you the restoration He gave to Mary.

This is the time we need to sing and pray:

Precious Lord take my hand. . .

Excellent post, Johann!!     

After watching all of this play out, I am even more thankful that I have given up on organized religion!!  I serve a God of love, not the inflexible and unbending omnipotent ogre I see described by some here...

[tinka]

Hmmm, Do people really believe that God does not have His organized church and the enemy will tear it down by the course of false teachers, and preachers within.  It's amazing how easy it is to see happen and watch on here!

The devil ruined creation until the flood had to happen

The devil duplicates many avenues more then human can begin to encounter and of course will devourer full fledged into SP and those who follow can surely look for the bright heavenly being that will finish them off as God's church is discarded.

Did anyone expect for this not to happen? It's here plain to see.

What I am reading comes directly how a reformer tries to dismantle the first organized church of SDA. Their main theme is The Organized church is Babylon and papal infiltrated with Jesuits.  You cannot convince them otherwise and the reason I was so shocked when Bob was called a Jesuit.

Now it has all opened up greatly to know you cannot convince otherwise the corrupted separated or off shoot doctrine against the first given by "Inspiration".

I've often said --time does tell and uncovers all.  All arguments come to exaggerations and untruths from story book and authors that the enemy scours and scours for points to prove.  I may be ignorant to some intellects view but I have not poisoned my mind with books to confuse my "one" source of truth in order to debate.  Other then EGW referring to the kind of work women should do - no where does she refer to what you think she is referring to - the "ordination of women credentials to preach" she is absolutely referring to "womanly duties that men cannot perform for women and should not".  and above all to help the husband that does preach.

 EGW was a chosen vessel to report her visions of which she did. Plain and simple.  So the church decides she is a preacher?? She was an "inspired messenger" that she only, only only would claim and now it is made out to be something else. It takes exaggerations and surmising that complicate what really was. and that is the evil part that dismantles.   

[Johann]

O.K.  I did not know.  You were justified in bringing it up.

It is a fascinating story, Gregory. Here we have this Dutch boy whose mountain-climbing father is killed and his sister dies, leaving but the mother and son. Somewhere he gets hold of a book by Spicer and is taken by the new doctrines. Then he has this stint in the air force where he attends both Catholic and Protestant services. Before leaving the air force he is reminded of the Adventist doctrines.

Seems like the Jesuits knew what they were doing by sending girls with the Catholic Father to the isolated boys hungry for adventure. So Damsteeg leaves the girls at the Catholic services and starts studying theology at Newbold College. Since he mentions these girls in his biography they must have left an impact on him which influenced his understanding of Scripture. How could such depraved girls ever have any positive Spiritual influence over men in the Church? Could you think of this girl he danced with some months ago being ordained as a priest?

Unthinkable!

Lets bring our minds back a couple of thousand years. What is the most important message in the world both then and today?

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?

Unfortunately I have personal knowledge of some Seventh-day Adventist pastors and elders who have acted as if their elevated male ordination status entitled them to deprive their daughters or granddaughters of their virginity. The ordination privileges are seeping through from the Catholic Church even into the Adventists to such an extent that our church needs a great revival and reformation.

Damsteeg seems to be an honest man. Perhaps the Lord would not permit him to distribute his writings and ideas without revealing under what influences he started his studies of Scripture? Is this the key we need to understand the deceptive influences this man has had on our leaders?

His influence seems so widespread that even many of our devout men and leaders are still prostrate in their devotion to this important Roman Catholic doctrine.

If any of this applies to you then see the outstretched hands of Jesus Christ, ready to give you the restoration He gave to Mary.

This is the time we need to sing and pray:

Precious Lord take my hand. . .

PS I had to leave suddenly so I posted this before making some corrections. This is why I made a few corrections now - also in the copy by Snoopy.

[Johann]

About 30 years ago I stood before the new deacons and an elder in my church. During their ordination I was reading to them the usual texts from 1 Timothy 3. As I stood there reading those verses it was like a light appeared in my Bible and I saw that these verses were really saying that female officers in the church should be treated exactly the same way as the males.

When I got home I kept studying these verses, wondering. Why had I not seen this before, or was I deceived? I had to pray. So I got out my Greek New Testament to check out what Paul was really writing. I came to the same conclusion. I tried to check out our Bible Commentary, all of what Ellen White had to say, and I found nothing contrary to my new discovery, and yet I did not want to venture out on something on my own.

So I wrote to my Conference President about it. He took it to the Conference committee and they decided to send the question to the Union. I found out the Union sent my request on to the Division of the General Conference.

Some weeks later I received the message my question had been considered on all of these levels and the conclusion was that my interpretation of Paul was correct, and therefore I could ordain at least the female deacons in my church. The question of elders was still under consideration. In reality the New Testament has only one ordination for males and females which is so different from the Roman Catholic ordination, and yet our Church has for years accepted the Roman Catholic pattern. This is one of the reasons for our disunity.

Ellen White tells us what I did is the way to go if we discover something new in Scripture. I followed the pattern and got my answers.

This is the reason why I have wondered why Gerhard Damsteegt is officially proclaiming something so different.

I got the clue by reading his biography.

[Johann]

Here is my letter:

Dear Dr. Damsteegt,

- - -

About 30 years ago I stood before the new deacons and an elder in my church. During their ordination I was reading to them the usual texts from 1 Timothy 3. As I stood there reading those verses it was like a light appeared in my Bible and I saw that these verses were really saying that female officers in the church should be treated exactly the same way as the males.

When I got home I kept studying these verses, wondering. Why had I not seen this before, or was I deceived? I had to pray. So I got out my Greek New Testament to check out what Paul was really writing. I came to the same conclusion. I tried to check out our Bible Commentary, all of what Ellen White had to say, and I found nothing contrary to my new discovery, and yet I did not want to venture out on something on my own.

So I wrote to my Conference President about it. He took it to the Conference committee and they decided to send the question to the Union. I found out the Union sent my request on to the Division of the General Conference.

Some weeks later I received the message my question had been considered on all of these levels and the conclusion was that my interpretation of Paul was correct, and therefore I could ordain at least the female deacons in my church. The question of elders was still under consideration. In reality the New Testament has only one ordination for males and females which is so different from the Roman Catholic ordination, and yet our Church has for years accepted the Roman Catholic pattern. This is one of the reasons for our disunity.

Ellen White tells us what I did is the way to go if we discover something new in Scripture. I followed the pattern and got my answers.

This is the reason why I have wondered why Gerhard Damsteegt is officially proclaiming something so different.

I got the clue by reading his biography.


Blessings,


Johann Thorvaldsson

PS. I would love to receive your comments.

[Bob Pickle]

Is it not true that the authorization "comes" from the office of local elder, not the commissioning?

I would say: No.

Perhaps this differs in some parts outside of the U.S.?

Female Commissioned Ministers who pastor congregations in the U.S. do not have to seek individual  permission to baptize in the same manner that ordained male clergy do not have to seek individual permission to baptize.  Their auhorization to baptize, as I understand it, continues for as long as they hold their credentials.  However, it is expected of both that they will baptize within the teritory in which they were granted their credentials.

As I understand it, local Elders are only granted permission to baptize on a limtied basis.  If they wish to baptize outside of that basis, they must seek permission to do so.

E.G.  A local Elder could be given permission to hold a single baptism.  I suppose that the Local Conference could grant a local Elder permission to baptize only within the congregation of which they were a pastor and only for as long as they were a pastor of that congregation.

On what basis are "commissioned ministers" authorized to baptize if it is not by virtue of being a local elder? An unordained minister can only baptize if they are elected and currently serving as a local church elder. I don't see how a commissioned minister can be any different, especially since they can only baptize within their own district.

For those who are unfamiliar with some of the history, the IRS grants a special tax break to ministers. Amounts spent for their homes can be excluded from income for income tax purposes, but not for self-employment tax purposes. Thus, amounts spent for the mortgage, utilities, furniture, rent, and the like can be excluded from income.

But this is only true as long as the minister can perform all the functions of an ordained minister. It used to be that unordained ministers could not baptize. And so in order to be able to get this tax break, unordained ministers were subsequently allowed to baptize as long as they were elected and currently serving as local church elders.

Later, when this issue about women pastors came along, they were allowed to baptize using the same reasoning.

I personally think that wanting a tax break was poor motivation for changing how we do things.

[Bob Pickle]

O.K.  I did not know.  You were justified in bringing it up.

I would disagree. Snatching a line from someone's conversion story that shows how shallow the Catholic meetings were, in order to damage the reputation of a minister and scholar, rather than presenting something of substance to counter that minister or scholar's ideas, is wrong.

[Bob Pickle]

So you would assert that your understanding and interpretation of the Bible and SoP would outweigh the authority of the GC in session? Doesn't the SoP state that you are wrong, as per the quotes from the Church Manual regarding the authority of the church?

Bob, the following is a quote from page 31 of the SDA Church Manual, and come under the heading "General Conference Highest Authority"

In the Church today the General Conference in session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between sessions, is the highest ecclesias- tical authority in the administration of the Church. The General Conference Executive Committee is authorized by its Constitution to create subordinate organizations with authority to carry out their roles. Therefore all subordi- nate organizations and institutions throughout the Church will recognize the General Conference in session, and the General Conference Executive Committee between sessions, as the highest ecclesiastical authority, under God, among Seventh-day Adventists.
When differences arise in or between churches and conferences or in- stitutions, appeal to the next higher constituent level is proper until it reaches an Annual Council of the General Conference Executive Committee or the General Conference in session. Between these meetings, the General Conference Executive Committee constitutes the body of final authority on all questions. The committee’s decision may be reviewed at a General Conference session or an Annual Council. When organizations review de- cisions of other organizations, they do not assume responsibility for the lia- bilities of any other organization.
“I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be fol- lowed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body.”— 9T 260.

"... highest ecclesiastical authority, under God, among Seventh-day Adventists." Therefore, the Bible and SoP remain above the authority of a GC Session.

And that's the way it must always be. If church councils are a higher authority, then what would prevent the formation of another Catholic Church?

As to the OT quote from Peter, would you agree that we tend to pick and choose OT laws to obey, adhering to some and rejecting others as they confirm or deny our preferences?

That would be a different subject, but no, I tend to think that we can provide a logical basis for accepting some precepts and not accepting others as valid today, without resorting to arbitrariness.