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[Bob Pickle]

Stan Hickerson, pastor of the Stevensville, Mich., Seventh-day Adventist Church, presented the early history of women in ministry. He noted the high point for women in ministry was in 1878 when in some conferences nearly 10% of the pastoral staff were women.

Why did this not continue in our church? Why not go back to the pattern laid out by our pioneers?

First of all, is it true? And if so, in what way is it true?

Note that the quote says "pastoral staff." Why don't we start by identifying three or four men who were on the pastoral staff of any specific conference, and then identify which church or churches they were pastor of. I suspect that we won't be able to, since the "pastoral staff" of those days were probably not pastoring churches. And if that really is the case, then they really shouldn't be called "pastoral staff."

So then we are down to ministerial staff. Then we need to determine what tasks those ministerial staff were doing. For example, while the 1879 (I think) report from MN indicated that a number of women received licenses, it was only men that received credentials. So what was the difference between the two?

I followed one of those ladies for a few years. I seem to recall that she sometimes received a license which was different than a canvassing license, and sometimes she received a canvassing license. The latter would be clear. But what tasks did she do for which she received a license? Was she a Bible worker? Or a canvassing leader? The Review isn't specific enough for me to know.

These are the kind of questions that need answering.

[Bob Pickle]

“I’ve been to four of these conferences so far but this was the first time that someone from the NAD came," exclaimed Ann Roda-Hernandez, pastor for families at New Hope Seventh-day Adventist Church in Fulton, Mary. "It was absolutely amazing that the NAD leadership was there — Dan Jackson, the Ministerial Department team and some Union presidents. It was the greatest show of affirmation that I’ve ever seen from our church! It meant a lot to the women clergy and it was a positive and inspiring experience for us who have experienced opposition to our calling.”

Since God as a general rule has not called male tithe-paid Adventist ministers to pastor local churches, according to the SoP, I think Ann needs to explain why she thinks God has called females to do that.

[Johann]

The vote, as far as I understand, was not a rejection of ordaining women. It meant a further study was to take place, giving the scholars up to a year or two to fulfill their task.

Could you quote from the voted action where that thought is made clear? What I recall the 1990 action stating is that there was no consensus as to whether it was biblical or not, which to me means that some thought it was biblical and some thought it was unbiblical. Because of the disunity that would result, the idea of ordaining women now was rejected. That's how I recall it.

Were you there? I was, and I have earlier given my impression of the climate there. There are times when our  elected leaders know more of the climate under which a vote was taken than what appears in the legal documents.

Reading the various reports and explanation of several leaders gives me the impression they are satisfied no further studies will change the outcome, so they go ahead and do the right thing under the circumstances, as is explained.

... without an inspired mandate to do so. That's where I have a problem with going contrary to a GC Session vote. What we're supposed to do is not keep pushing our personal opinions under such circumstances. How would still pushing our opinions be any different from what the Judaizers did in Paul's day after the council of Acts 15 had already occurred?

Whose personal opinion? Did you miss the point in the report where an officer of the conservative Michigan Conference confessed this had not been his personal opinion but the result of a thorough investigation of the Word of God? He admitted having laid his personal opinion aside to discover the will of God. Would you ever do that? Is your personal opinion that the pope is right of greater importance to you?

Because they have a conscience in tune with the Word of God and are not in a league with Roman tradition. And they are satisfied the scholars assigned to a specific task have already delivered enough evidence to satisfy what they were asked to do.

When the alleged biblical reasons given by the scholars are closely examined, they appear unconvincing or inconclusive. This should not be surprising, since the book Women in Ministry is clearly not infallible, given the fact that it cites the non-existent action of the 1881 GC Session.

Are you sure your evaluation is not biased in favor of the pope? My impression is so different. Pray about it!

[Johann]

Stan Hickerson, pastor of the Stevensville, Mich., Seventh-day Adventist Church, presented the early history of women in ministry. He noted the high point for women in ministry was in 1878 when in some conferences nearly 10% of the pastoral staff were women.

Why did this not continue in our church? Why not go back to the pattern laid out by our pioneers?

First of all, is it true? And if so, in what way is it true?

Note that the quote says "pastoral staff." Why don't we start by identifying three or four men who were on the pastoral staff of any specific conference, and then identify which church or churches they were pastor of. I suspect that we won't be able to, since the "pastoral staff" of those days were probably not pastoring churches. And if that really is the case, then they really shouldn't be called "pastoral staff."

So then we are down to ministerial staff. Then we need to determine what tasks those ministerial staff were doing. For example, while the 1879 (I think) report from MN indicated that a number of women received licenses, it was only men that received credentials. So what was the difference between the two?

I followed one of those ladies for a few years. I seem to recall that she sometimes received a license which was different than a canvassing license, and sometimes she received a canvassing license. The latter would be clear. But what tasks did she do for which she received a license? Was she a Bible worker? Or a canvassing leader? The Review isn't specific enough for me to know.

These are the kind of questions that need answering.

If we keep questioning until the minutest detail is clarified we might have to wait until after the Second Coming.

Reminds me of the teacher who kept questioning how it was possible for Jonah to enter the whale.

- I'll ask him when we get to heaven, said a little girl who just believed.

- How about if he doesn't get there, questioned the unbelieving teacher.

- Then you ask him, answered the little girl.

On either side we will get the final answers, Bob, if we insist. But we might have to stop asking if we want to be on the right side. Faith does not require an answer to every detail,  and we must also trust our leaders. Unless the pope has already convinced us we'll spend a few centuries in purgatory if we agree with the ordination of women.

[Snoopy]

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

Perhaps we have more in common with Catholicism than we thought...

[Johann]

“I’ve been to four of these conferences so far but this was the first time that someone from the NAD came," exclaimed Ann Roda-Hernandez, pastor for families at New Hope Seventh-day Adventist Church in Fulton, Mary. "It was absolutely amazing that the NAD leadership was there — Dan Jackson, the Ministerial Department team and some Union presidents. It was the greatest show of affirmation that I’ve ever seen from our church! It meant a lot to the women clergy and it was a positive and inspiring experience for us who have experienced opposition to our calling.”

Since God as a general rule has not called male tithe-paid Adventist ministers to pastor local churches, according to the SoP, I think Ann needs to explain why she thinks God has called females to do that.

She has simply read the writings of Ellen G White, in particular a quotation you seem to fear like the plague. Ellen White states clearly that women are called to such tasks - and should be ordained. Perhaps you need to take a trip to Damascus and meet Ananias. He might be able to clear your vision on this point, unless you also need a couple of years in the wilderness?

After his visit to Ananias, Paul preached Christ boldly! Do we need such a vision?

[Johann]

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

Perhaps we have more in common with Catholicism than we thought...

 

[princessdi]

I really hate that I lost this information once, but here it is in part:

Hattie Enoch (Late 1800s)Licensed to preach in Kansas. GC President G. I. Butler, said, "Elder Cook (Conference President) thinks she is a better laborer in such things than any minister in the state." She and her husband later pioneered the work in Bermuda.

Ellen S. Lane (1880s)An evangelist with her husband, Ellen Lane became the first Adventist woman to receive a ministerial license. She is said to have been a more popular preacher than her husband.

Mary Walsh (1890 - )Preacher, pastor, Bible worker, trainer of pastors.

...and here is the link:  http://adventistwomensministries.org/index.php?id=58#Additional_Biographies_of_SDA_Women_7

Now, the real question is what changed after the death of EGW and these women that the church no longer allows women to pastor When they obviously had no problem with it before?

Stan Hickerson, pastor of the Stevensville, Mich., Seventh-day Adventist Church, presented the early history of women in ministry. He noted the high point for women in ministry was in 1878 when in some conferences nearly 10% of the pastoral staff were women.

Why did this not continue in our church? Why not go back to the pattern laid out by our pioneers?

First of all, is it true? And if so, in what way is it true?

Note that the quote says "pastoral staff." Why don't we start by identifying three or four men who were on the pastoral staff of any specific conference, and then identify which church or churches they were pastor of. I suspect that we won't be able to, since the "pastoral staff" of those days were probably not pastoring churches. And if that really is the case, then they really shouldn't be called "pastoral staff."

So then we are down to ministerial staff. Then we need to determine what tasks those ministerial staff were doing. For example, while the 1879 (I think) report from MN indicated that a number of women received licenses, it was only men that received credentials. So what was the difference between the two?

I followed one of those ladies for a few years. I seem to recall that she sometimes received a license which was different than a canvassing license, and sometimes she received a canvassing license. The latter would be clear. But what tasks did she do for which she received a license? Was she a Bible worker? Or a canvassing leader? The Review isn't specific enough for me to know.

These are the kind of questions that need answering.

[Snoopy]

Now, the real question is what changed after the death of EGW and these women that the church no longer allows women to pastor When they obviously had no problem with it before?

Increasing numbers of egotistical men??

[Snoopy]

I attended Mass last Sunday and the priest opened his remarks with this question:

  "Who was the first individual to recognize Jesus after He arose from the dead?"

I just thought it was interesting...!!

[Gregory]

. . that the church no longer allows women to pastor . . .

1)  The SDA Church has formally approved females serving as pastors.  lWe have many such and this has been done for some years.

2) Under General Conference policy, the above women are Commissioned, not Ordained.  Their ministerial privliges are almost  (not quite) the same as are granted to males who are ordained.

3) The SDA Church formally endorses women for Federal Chaplalincies.  We have SDA females serving as military chaplains.

4) The SDA Chruch recognizes females in China as ordained SDA Clergy.

[Bob Pickle]

Were you there? I was, and I have earlier given my impression of the climate there. There are times when our  elected leaders know more of the climate under which a vote was taken than what appears in the legal documents.

Yet we aren't talking about merely a voted action. We are talking about a previously prepared recommendation that was passed 1,173 to 377, which recommendation states matters pretty much as I described.

Whose personal opinion? Did you miss the point in the report where an officer of the conservative Michigan Conference confessed this had not been his personal opinion but the result of a thorough investigation of the Word of God? He admitted having laid his personal opinion aside to discover the will of God.

Then if it is really what the Bible mandates and not simply his personal opinion of what the Bible says, he can simply quote the Bible verse where it says, "Thou shalt ordain women," and the matter is forever settled.

But if he can't come up with a clear, inspired mandate, then he ought to set aside his personal opinion or preference, and submit to the GC Session votes of 1990 and 1995. Otherwise, he is following in the footsteps of the Judaizers who caused Paul so many problems after Acts 15.

[Bob Pickle]

“I’ve been to four of these conferences so far but this was the first time that someone from the NAD came," exclaimed Ann Roda-Hernandez, pastor for families at New Hope Seventh-day Adventist Church in Fulton, Mary. "It was absolutely amazing that the NAD leadership was there — Dan Jackson, the Ministerial Department team and some Union presidents. It was the greatest show of affirmation that I’ve ever seen from our church! It meant a lot to the women clergy and it was a positive and inspiring experience for us who have experienced opposition to our calling.”

Since God as a general rule has not called male tithe-paid Adventist ministers to pastor local churches, according to the SoP, I think Ann needs to explain why she thinks God has called females to do that.

She has simply read the writings of Ellen G White, in particular a quotation you seem to fear like the plague. Ellen White states clearly that women are called to such tasks - and should be ordained.

Then Johann, by all means quote for us here where Ellen White ever said that women are called to pastor local churches.

She plainly said that male tithe-paid ministers were not as a general rule to do that work. If she said men aren't supposed to, then where are you going to find a quote that says women are?

Hint: Find a quote where she says that women are supposed to serve as local church elders. I've never read one, but that is what you need to find to support your point.

I repeat: Tithe-paid ministers are supposed to be raising up new churches, not pastoring existing churches, as a general rule.

[Bob Pickle]

I really hate that I lost this information once, but here it is in part:

Hattie Enoch (Late 1800s)Licensed to preach in Kansas. GC President G. I. Butler, said, "Elder Cook (Conference President) thinks she is a better laborer in such things than any minister in the state." She and her husband later pioneered the work in Bermuda.

Ellen S. Lane (1880s)An evangelist with her husband, Ellen Lane became the first Adventist woman to receive a ministerial license. She is said to have been a more popular preacher than her husband.

Mary Walsh (1890 - )Preacher, pastor, Bible worker, trainer of pastors.

...and here is the link:  http://adventistwomensministries.org/index.php?id=58#Additional_Biographies_of_SDA_Women_7

Now, the real question is what changed after the death of EGW and these women that the church no longer allows women to pastor When they obviously had no problem with it before?

Di,

You cite individuals that were allegedly given licenses to preach, and then in your final sentence switch to the topic of women pastoring. Why the switch from a license to preach, which had nothing to do with pastoring a local church, to pastoring?

Your statement sounds as if you are assuming that local Adventist churches had settled pastors in the 1880's and 1890's. What evidence do you have to support that assumption?

Regarding the names you list from that website, I checked out the first one via http://www.adventistarchives.org/search.asp?CatID=-99&CatName=Search+All+Categories&Search=%22Hattie+Enoch%22. Consistently, Hattie was given a license, but was never given credentials. So even though the church in the late 1880's utilized women in evangelism, they apparently never ever gave them credentials, because they never ordained them. So if we go back to the way things used to be, which is what the women's ordination crowd says they want, should we also today utilize but never ordain?

See http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18850317-V62-11__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13 where what Hattie was doing on one occasion is described. George Randall appears to be in charge, and Hattie is assisting in preaching and visiting. They came to Hazleton "to assist the church in an effort to get out of" "a cold and backslidden state." They were not living there serving as the pastors. The elders were supposed to be doing that.

[Johann]

“I’ve been to four of these conferences so far but this was the first time that someone from the NAD came," exclaimed Ann Roda-Hernandez, pastor for families at New Hope Seventh-day Adventist Church in Fulton, Mary. "It was absolutely amazing that the NAD leadership was there — Dan Jackson, the Ministerial Department team and some Union presidents. It was the greatest show of affirmation that I’ve ever seen from our church! It meant a lot to the women clergy and it was a positive and inspiring experience for us who have experienced opposition to our calling.”

Since God as a general rule has not called male tithe-paid Adventist ministers to pastor local churches, according to the SoP, I think Ann needs to explain why she thinks God has called females to do that.

She has simply read the writings of Ellen G White, in particular a quotation you seem to fear like the plague. Ellen White states clearly that women are called to such tasks - and should be ordained.

Then Johann, by all means quote for us here where Ellen White ever said that women are called to pastor local churches.

She plainly said that male tithe-paid ministers were not as a general rule to do that work. If she said men aren't supposed to, then where are you going to find a quote that says women are?

Hint: Find a quote where she says that women are supposed to serve as local church elders. I've never read one, but that is what you need to find to support your point.

I repeat: Tithe-paid ministers are supposed to be raising up new churches, not pastoring existing churches, as a general rule.

Bob:

You sure have a way of mixing facts and defining them to defend your own bias.

In reality there is but one kind of ordination in the New Testament which is listed not by title but by definition.

I was ordained, first as a local elder in 1959, and then as a pastor in 1962. In a way this was a mistake, because a local elder is called a bishop in the New Testament. But we will leave that subject for now.

When I was ordained by our Division Pesident it was not because I had been working as a pastor in a district containing nine local churches, but because I had presented a number of souls to be baptized by three different ordained ministers on different occasions while serving as a pastor. After I was ordained I was transferred to another district where I kept on winning souls,  now baptizing them myself, until I received a call from Africa.

I think I have told you my story before, that before we sailed for Africa I visited our friends and when I got to Miss Jensen she felt sorry we were leaving. She was still a member of another denomination and had not taken her stand for the Advent Message. Now she said,

- I am afraid that since you are leaving I'll never be baptized.

Then I told her there was still one more Sabbath before we were leaving,  and I was certain we could talk the deacons into filling the baptistery with water by then.

Bob, I am amazed how efficient you are at splitting the Word of God in an attempt to let it fit your bias. When I read that quote of Ellen White I find it defining the ministry I was ordained to perform as well as the ministry our female pastors are called to perform. Your bias does not permit that definition, so I wonder . . .