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[Bob Pickle]

On the Northern German Union Vote for Women's Ordination
While the decision is in contradiction to global regulation, it should be noted that it was emphasized more than once that this is not to be considered as an act of disloyalty towards the world church, but as an act of conscience toward the gospel, albeit with a flavor of civil disobedience.

However, it must be noted that this is not just civil disobedience. It is rebellion. God has told us that GC Session votes have authority. The words above indicate that the Northern German Union has rejected that authority.

The Role of NAD

President Jackson . . . described the conferences and unions as doing what they feel God is calling them to do, and the NAD did not see its role as one of trying to stop them.  “We are not going to chastise them…we are not going to affirm them.”  Instead, President Jackson sees the role of the NAD as one of educating the North American constituencies.  He noted that it was clear at the 2011 year-end meeting that this question is not going away for NAD, and that its role, in addition to education, is to find more pathways for women in leadership.

Spectrum

If Jackson isn't going to do his job, he should resign. He is not the man for the job.

For one thing, he has himself admitted that the NAD is but part of the GC. What you quote above indicates that he has decided not to urge conferences and unions in the NAD to follow the policies of the very organization of which he is a part. If he can't support his own organization's policies, he shouldn't be NAD president.

[Johann]

On the Northern German Union Vote for Women's Ordination
While the decision is in contradiction to global regulation, it should be noted that it was emphasized more than once that this is not to be considered as an act of disloyalty towards the world church, but as an act of conscience toward the gospel, albeit with a flavor of civil disobedience.

However, it must be noted that this is not just civil disobedience. It is rebellion. God has told us that GC Session votes have authority. The words above indicate that the Northern German Union has rejected that authority.

The Role of NAD

President Jackson . . . described the conferences and unions as doing what they feel God is calling them to do, and the NAD did not see its role as one of trying to stop them.  “We are not going to chastise them…we are not going to affirm them.”  Instead, President Jackson sees the role of the NAD as one of educating the North American constituencies.  He noted that it was clear at the 2011 year-end meeting that this question is not going away for NAD, and that its role, in addition to education, is to find more pathways for women in leadership.

Spectrum

If Jackson isn't going to do his job, he should resign. He is not the man for the job.

For one thing, he has himself admitted that the NAD is but part of the GC. What you quote above indicates that he has decided not to urge conferences and unions in the NAD to follow the policies of the very organization of which he is a part. If he can't support his own organization's policies, he shouldn't be NAD president.

Both of these organizations seem to be in full disagreement with you. They state that they are following their conscience and the will of God in this matter.  Jackson is stating that it is the purpose of NAD to educate people in these matters. I'd say those who are being blinded into obeying the will of the Papacy. Since Papacy is not able to convince SDA they should not keep the Sabbath, Papacy is succeeding in blinding people into thinking they are doing the right thing by treating women the way the Papacy has done since they gained the supremacy in the Christian world.

Didn't you see this in the history of the Celtic church?

Have you forgotten, it was just last year that the Roman Catholic Church invited members of the Church of England to join their ranks on just one condition: That they agreed with Rome on the status of women in ministry! Getting people used to following man-made commandments. Why should we yield?

How long have you believed that the Little Horn would change the requirement of the Law of God?

We know and agree that this applies to the Sabbath commandment. Does this mean that the Roman Catholic Church is free to change or add other commandments to the Law of God?

Here the Roman Catholic Church has added this man made commandment - and it makes absolutely no impression on you. What does it take for you to see this clear message to people who believe in Prophecy?

Because you no longer can find any word in Scripture nor the Spirit of Prophecy to justify your view you turn to a technicality to justify the Pope!

You are too good a man to be made a vehicle to support such a fallacy. May God  have mercy on us.

I am afraid that anyone who gets into the habit of supporting papacy in some things, will soon be able to follow in other more important issues.

[Johann]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

[Bob Pickle]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

Johann, please explain to all of us how your support of rebellion against properly constituted church authority is in harmony with 9T 261, which was written by Ellen White.

Please explain how the actions of a few elected leaders take precedence over the actions of an entire GC Session which is composed of far more elected leaders and delegates.

[Snoopy]

Many will follow to jump off a cliff too or take a kool-aid.

I guess I have a hard time understanding the thought process of someone who finds that funny...

[Johann]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

Johann, please explain to all of us how your support of rebellion against properly constituted church authority is in harmony with 9T 261, which was written by Ellen White.

Comparing what Ellen White wrote on different occasions is a strong indication to me that 9T 261 does not have a universal application, especially if a leader discovers how that vote means supporting the Roman Catholic doctrine of ordination and is not supported by New Testament Christianity.

The vote, as far as I understand, was not a rejection of ordaining women. It meant a further study was to take place, giving the scholars up to a year or two to fulfill their task.

Usually when a team fulfills their task in a shorter time than allocated they receive an appreciation for using less time than required.

Reading the various reports and explanation of several leaders gives me the impression they are satisfied no further studies will change the outcome, so they go ahead and do the right thing under the circumstances, as is explained.

My conscience would not permit me to go any other way, as long as I serve the Living God.

Please explain how the actions of a few elected leaders take precedence over the actions of an entire GC Session which is composed of far more elected leaders and delegates.

Because they have a conscience in tune with the Word of God and are not in a league with Roman tradition. And they are satisfied the scholars assigned to a specific task have already delivered enough evidence to satisfy what they were asked to do. Why should they now be forced to follow the dictates of Roman Catholicism when the matter seems clear to them?

If your "other" elected leaders were really as convinced as you seem to be that this is taking the Church in a wrong direction, they should be more vocal than now.

[Murcielago]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

Johann, please explain to all of us how your support of rebellion against properly constituted church authority is in harmony with 9T 261, which was written by Ellen White.

Please explain how the actions of a few elected leaders take precedence over the actions of an entire GC Session which is composed of far more elected leaders and delegates.

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

[tinka]

Many will follow to jump off a cliff too or take a kool-aid.

I guess I have a hard time understanding the thought process of someone who finds that funny...

What is funny is self proclaimed Adventists that don't know that is what is going to happen as the foundations are torn away inch by inch till the "organized church seems to fall" That part is not funny but the argument sure is!! A true Adventis will not follow the majority which is against S_P so they might as well jump off a cliff with the rest of voters on New age theories.   Does that say it any better??

[Johann]

A Change Is Taking Place

The conversation has changed.  No longer must women working as pastors in local Seventh-day Adventist churches defend the validity of their role, exegete the challenging biblical passages, argue the appropriateness of their vocation in light of Adventist history, or humbly articulate their commitment to their congregations and their ability to be effective in pastoral ministry.  At the recent North American Division Women Clergy Conference, April 23-26, 2012, the leaders of the North American Division (NAD) Ministerial Department assumed all of the above without question. Acceptance of women in ministry was the new normal. In his final presentation to the group of approximately 120 ministers, President Dan Jackson repeated what had been said many times throughout the conference:  “I want to thank each of you for responding to the call of God.”  The only issue now, it seemed, was just how to resolve the ordination issue in terms of church policy and governance.

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/05/02/reflections-nad-women-clergy-conference

[Johann]

Many will follow to jump off a cliff too or take a kool-aid.

I guess I have a hard time understanding the thought process of someone who finds that funny...

What is funny is self proclaimed Adventists that don't know that is what is going to happen as the foundations are torn away inch by inch till the "organized church seems to fall" That part is not funny but the argument sure is!! A true Adventis will not follow the majority which is against S_P so they might as well jump off a cliff with the rest of voters on New age theories.   Does that say it any better??

Since when has rebellion against the Seventh-day Adventist Church become the only true sign of sanctification?

[Johann]

The Official NAD Report

5-2-12 North American Division Affirms Women Clergy
.
Report of the first organized conference for women clergy
 
 
Most of the 107 women pastors in the North American Division were able to attend the largest conference for Women Clergy to date on April 23-26. It was held at the Adventist Frontier Mission Retreat Center on Lake Chapin, in Berrien Springs, Mich.
 
Boosting the attendance to nearly 300 were chaplains, seminary students and Division, Union, and Conference administrators who were there to show their support of women in ministry.
 
The women clergy gathered in small groups to share their personal stories of God’s call to ministry. They also articulated some of the gender obstacles to ministry that they have encountered and came up with positive suggestions as to how the NAD could enhance the role of female clergy.
 
Stan Hickerson, pastor of the Stevensville, Mich., Seventh-day Adventist Church, presented the early history of women in ministry. He noted the high point for women in ministry was in 1878 when in some conferences nearly 10% of the pastoral staff were women.
 
Ron du Preez,, Michigan Conference communication director,  shared his personal journey of how he came to endorse the role of women clergy and addressed some deeper insights on many of the texts used by those who object to women pastors.
 
Dwight Nelson, senior pastor, Pioneer Memorial Church, pointed out that the Bible does not forbid women in ministry and further stated that since the Holy Spirit is blessing women, we should follow the Spirit.
 
Darius Jankiewicz, associate professor of historical theology at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary on the campus of Andrews University shared his recent study of scripture where he concluded that ordination was not part of the New Testament Church. Furthermore, his historical study revealed that ordination began in the pagan world and developed over the centuries into a theology that puts the priests in a position of authority over the laity and limits the dispensation of God’s grace to the priesthood. 
 
Dan Jackson, Division president, attended the meeting. He said, "It was my privilege to spend time last week with a very special group of godly, Christian, Seventh-day Adventist pastors just outside of Berrien Springs, Mich. These pastors were women and I was blessed to hear their stories, to witness their energy and to see their commitment to God's work. It was a moment in time where I was personally able to witness the fulfillment of the promise of Joel 2:28, 29 where we are told that God would ‘pour out His Spirit on all flesh.’ God be praised for the Spirit-filled women pastors of the North American Division."

Donna Holland, administrative pastor at the Beltsville, Mary., Adventist Church, expressed her reactions to the conference. She said,”I appreciated the Women's Clergy Conference because it provided opportunity to meet other women clergy and to learn more about what is being done to bring more equality between men and women clergy.”
 
“I’ve been to four of these conferences so far but this was the first time that someone from the NAD came," exclaimed Ann Roda-Hernandez, pastor for families at New Hope Seventh-day Adventist Church in Fulton, Mary. "It was absolutely amazing that the NAD leadership was there — Dan Jackson, the Ministerial Department team and some Union presidents. It was the greatest show of affirmation that I’ve ever seen from our church! It meant a lot to the women clergy and it was a positive and inspiring experience for us who have experienced opposition to our calling.” 
 
The Women’s Clergy Conference was planned by Esther Knott, associate ministerial director of the North American Division and a pastor at Pioneer Memorial Church. The event was sponsored by the North American Division Ministerial Department.
 
The NAD Ministerial team is working to upload the presentations and other highlights from the Women Clergy Conference. Watch NewsPoints for an update or visit www.nadministerial.org

[Johann]

Stan Hickerson, pastor of the Stevensville, Mich., Seventh-day Adventist Church, presented the early history of women in ministry. He noted the high point for women in ministry was in 1878 when in some conferences nearly 10% of the pastoral staff were women.

Why did this not continue in our church? Why not go back to the pattern laid out by our pioneers?

[Johann]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

Johann, please explain to all of us how your support of rebellion against properly constituted church authority is in harmony with 9T 261, which was written by Ellen White.

Please explain how the actions of a few elected leaders take precedence over the actions of an entire GC Session which is composed of far more elected leaders and delegates.

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

So right. As I ponder over this I see a number of other nuts that must be cracked but I feel this is enough for now.

[Bob Pickle]

The vote, as far as I understand, was not a rejection of ordaining women. It meant a further study was to take place, giving the scholars up to a year or two to fulfill their task.

Could you quote from the voted action where that thought is made clear? What I recall the 1990 action stating is that there was no consensus as to whether it was biblical or not, which to me means that some thought it was biblical and some thought it was unbiblical. Because of the disunity that would result, the idea of ordaining women now was rejected. That's how I recall it.

Reading the various reports and explanation of several leaders gives me the impression they are satisfied no further studies will change the outcome, so they go ahead and do the right thing under the circumstances, as is explained.

... without an inspired mandate to do so. That's where I have a problem with going contrary to a GC Session vote. What we're supposed to do is not keep pushing our personal opinions under such circumstances. How would still pushing our opinions be any different from what the Judaizers did in Paul's day after the council of Acts 15 had already occurred?

Because they have a conscience in tune with the Word of God and are not in a league with Roman tradition. And they are satisfied the scholars assigned to a specific task have already delivered enough evidence to satisfy what they were asked to do.

When the alleged biblical reasons given by the scholars are closely examined, they appear unconvincing or inconclusive. This should not be surprising, since the book Women in Ministry is clearly not infallible, given the fact that it cites the non-existent action of the 1881 GC Session.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

GC and NAD Working Policy states that the GC Session is the highest authority under God. I don't have a problem with that.

The Bible and SoP are inspired by God, and in my view thus take precedence over a GC Session.

The difficulty for the women's ordination side is that they can't provide a solid biblical reason for the practice. For example, the idea that Peter's statements on the priesthood of all believers means that we should ordain women ignores the fact that peter is quoting Ex. 19:6, and all believers were not ordained as priests in OT times.

If a GC Session were to vote that we should now keep Sunday, I would choose not to rebel against the authority of God, and thus would not obey that GC Session vote.