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Author Topic: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason  (Read 281628 times)

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Snoopy

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #405 on: April 14, 2012, 12:58:21 PM »

A friend of mine has this statement on his FaceBook page:

Quote
God is more tolerant than all religions

What is your view?

Does he need our guidance?
Any organization that wishes to exert the authority of God over people must identify God has having given them His authority. Then they can do whatever it is they do in His name. Questioning them is questioning God, disobeying them is disobeying God, not being like them is not being like God, not having their intolerance is not having God's intolerance, leaving them is leaving God, joining them is joining God (on terms that God never set). In the end, we know what will happen,they will say say "but God! Look at everything we did in your name?! and he will reply "Go away from me you doers of evil deeds, I never knew you."

Amen and Amen!!  You are SO right, Murcielago.  I have personal experience with these people!  They will go to any end to control in the name of God.  I am so grateful that the God I serve doesn't work that way.

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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #406 on: April 14, 2012, 02:11:22 PM »

A friend of mine has this statement on his FaceBook page:

Quote
God is more tolerant than all religions

What is your view?

Does he need our guidance?
Any organization that wishes to exert the authority of God over people must identify God has having given them His authority. Then they can do whatever it is they do in His name. Questioning them is questioning God, disobeying them is disobeying God, not being like them is not being like God, not having their intolerance is not having God's intolerance, leaving them is leaving God, joining them is joining God (on terms that God never set). In the end, we know what will happen,they will say say "but God! Look at everything we did in your name?! and he will reply "Go away from me you doers of evil deeds, I never knew you."

The two of you have something in common. Both of you admire your parents. Both of you are sons of . . . I could go on. . . but it might be too close to revealing identities.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #407 on: April 18, 2012, 02:01:30 PM »

A news feature recently revealed that the two largest industries in our country both have female directors. The latest one is a Danish lady who found a  husband in our country about six years ago and she has since managed to master our difficult language (something my Danish mother never managed during the 40 years she was here) but also win the confidence of the strong male metal workers at one of the world's largest aluminum production factory utilizing the tremendous hydroelectric power available when a new dam was constructed.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #408 on: April 21, 2012, 03:18:51 PM »

It was interesting hearing from an expert -  and from the pulpit - this morning that people investigating the history of the early church are discovering how Christianity spread to the Celts in Ireland already in the second century A.D. This was un-amalgamated Christianity and still the way Jesus Christ and the Apostles had taught and practiced their faith and religion.

Several hundred years later soldiers with bayonets forced the people to accept a new form of religion where new ideas were introduced. Among the prominent changes was to discard the Sabbath in exchange for Sunday worship and also the introduction of male headship, something that was strange to the early Christian Church where there was full equality between male and female Christians, and where women served freely as prophets and preachers and pastors. This was something the Roman Church would not allow.

Was this something that only happened to the Celtic Christians or did this happen elsewhere in the world as well?
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #409 on: April 22, 2012, 05:26:16 AM »

Historic documents indicate that by the 6th century AD Celtic Christians who were not willing to adhere to the Roman teachings in the northern part of the British Isles took their boats and fled to Iceland where they isolated themselves until the Norwegian and Swedish Vikings invaded Iceland in the 9th century. No records have been discovered to indicate what happened to the Christians after that.
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Gregory

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #410 on: April 22, 2012, 07:43:58 PM »

Johann, you might be interested in the following book:

James Rrston, THE LAST APOCALYPSE: EUROPE AT THE YEAR 1000 A.D.,  Doubleday, 1998, 299 pages.

This book focuses on religion and how it came to certain  countries.  It is enlightening to learn of the methods that were often used to convert countries either to Christianity, or to Paganism.  E.G.  A red-hot poker that was about to be inserted in the throat of a reluctant convertant.

NOTE: The time-line is near to 1000 AD.

Of interest to you might be the 2nd chapter,  "Thorgeir the Lawspeaker," pages 35 - 56, which deal with the conversion of Iceland.

NOTE:  Iceland seemed to have escaped at that time  conversion efforts of the magniltude that I have mentioned above.

Johann, you and students of religious history, I believe, will find this a very interesting book.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 07:48:52 PM by Gregory »
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Gregory

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #411 on: April 22, 2012, 07:47:29 PM »

Here is how Amazon describes the book I have mentioned below:

Quote
Enter the world of 1000 A.D., when Vikings, Moors, and barbarians battled kings and popes for the fate of Europe.

As the millennium approached, Europeans feared the world would end.  The old order was crumbling, and terrifying and confusing new ideas were gaining hold in the populace.  Random and horrific violence seemed to sprout everywhere without warning, and without apparent remedy.  And, in fact, when the millennium arrived the apocalypse did take place; a world did end, and a new world arose from the ruins.

In 950, Ireland, England, and France were helpless against the ravages of the seagoing Vikings; the fierce and strange Hungarian Magyars laid waste to Germany and Italy; the legions of the Moors ruled Spain and threatened the remnants of Charlemagne's vast domain.  The papacy was corrupt and decadent, overshadowed by glorious Byzantium.  Yet a mere fifty years later, the gods of the Vikings were dethroned, the shamans of the Magyars were massacred, the magnificent Moorish caliphate disintegrated: The sign of the cross held sway from Spain in the West to Russia in the East.

James Reston, Jr.'s enthralling saga of how the Christian kingdoms converted, conquered, and slaughtered their way to dominance brings to life unforgettable historical characters who embodied the struggle for the soul of Europe.  From the righteous fury of the Viking queen Sigrid the Strong-Minded, who burned unwanted suitors alive; to the brilliant but too-cunning Moor Al-Mansor the Illustrious Victor; to the aptly named English king Ethelred the Unready; to the abiding genius of the age, Pope Sylvester II--warrior-kings and concubine empresses, maniacal warriors and religious zealots, bring this stirring period to life.

The Last Apocalypse is a book rich in personal historical detail, flavored with the nearly magical sensibility of an apocalyptic age.


James Reston, Jr., is the author of ten previous books, including Galileo: A Life and Sherman's March and Vietnam.  He has written for The New Yorker, Esquire, Vanity Fair, Time, Rolling Stone, and many other publications.  His television work includes three "Frontline" documentaries, including "Eighty-Eight Seconds in Greensboro." The Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars provided him with a Visiting Fellowship during the course of his work on this book.  Reston lives in Chevy Chase, Maryland.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #412 on: April 23, 2012, 10:52:03 AM »

James Reston Jr. is a very interesting author on several levels. He writes the history of the past as he sees it from the various data he collects. I'd say he uses the best information available although he does not so much verify by direct quotes, This reminds me of some quotes from the Gospels. Take a look at these verses:

Quote
Matthew 10:19

King James Version (KJV)

 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Quote
Mark 13:11

King James Version (KJV)

 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Quote
Luke 12:11. 12

King James Version (KJV)

 11And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Some may wonder why did the Gospel Writers not quote Jesus using the same terms? My answer would be that even Ellen White makes it clear that inspiration is not tied to a specific terminology because the memory of the writers might be different.

James Reston Jr. is a great historian, but he is not tied to specific terms in his accounts of what happened.

I'd like to tell you that the ancient Althing is located only 30-45 minutes from us. Ida and I often take Sabbath afternoon rides to the place where we watch the rocks, the stones, the river, the lake, and even the natural pulpit  where history happened from the year 930 AD. From there we occasionally take a ride for another 20 minutes to see the thermal baptismal pool where those farmers were baptized in the year 1000 AD who did not want to be baptized in the ice cold mountain stream of Öxará at Althing. 1012 years later the pool is still there giving us a living history of baptism not taking place by sprinkling children, but grown up people entering into the waters of baptism.

This is living history.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 11:03:23 AM by Johann »
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #413 on: April 23, 2012, 11:18:06 AM »

Last Sabbath afternoon I was both in Europe and America within a minute or two together with Ida and two daughters. (Both of the daughters are grandmothers, still young, but that is another story.)

By studying earthquakes and volcanoes geologists have determined that Europe and America are standing on different plates or foundations, and these under a peninsula in the South Western part of Iceland where there is a cleft. A bridge has been built across this cleft making it possible to walk over to the geological part of America.  This ties Iceland to Greenland which is in North America, just by Canada.

Be sure to see this spot too when you travel to Iceland to "read" ancient Church History.
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Murcielago

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #414 on: April 23, 2012, 02:05:32 PM »

Johann, you might be interested in the following book:

James Rrston, THE LAST APOCALYPSE: EUROPE AT THE YEAR 1000 A.D.,  Doubleday, 1998, 299 pages.

This book focuses on religion and how it came to certain  countries.  It is enlightening to learn of the methods that were often used to convert countries either to Christianity, or to Paganism.  E.G.  A red-hot poker that was about to be inserted in the throat of a reluctant convertant.

NOTE: The time-line is near to 1000 AD.

Of interest to you might be the 2nd chapter,  "Thorgeir the Lawspeaker," pages 35 - 56, which deal with the conversion of Iceland.

NOTE:  Iceland seemed to have escaped at that time  conversion efforts of the magniltude that I have mentioned above.

Johann, you and students of religious history, I believe, will find this a very interesting book.
Thanks Gregory, I'll be ordering this book.
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Gregory

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #415 on: April 27, 2012, 01:52:38 PM »

North German Union Conference Constituency Session Votes to Ordain Women


Submitted: Apr 27, 2012
By AT News Team   [Adventist Today--GM]


The fifth constituency session of the North German Union Conference, meeting in Geseke on April 22 and 23, was the first gathering of official Seventh-day Adventist delegates since the 1881 General Conference session to vote approval of ordination for women serving in pastoral ministry. The resolution was approved by more than a two-thirds majority of the delegates.
 
The text of the action reads as follows: “Voted, to ordain in the North German Union female pastors [in the same way] as their male colleagues.” Pastor Klaus van Treeck, union conference president, told Adventist Today that the action is “without any limitations” in terms of when it will be implemented. It did not include language such as that in a similar vote by the Southern Union Conference executive committee in the United States deferring to the granting of permission by the General Conference.
 
“There was not change of the constitution nor bylaws,” van Treeck stated. The topic of ordination is not part of the constitution of the union conference. The action also did not involve a change in the working policy of the denomination in Germany. The working policy there is under the authority of a body named the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Germany (FiD) which is constituted of a joint meeting of the executive committees of the two union conferences in that country.
 
There was not vote taken to propose changes in the working policy because “the delegates didn’t want to push the South German Union … in the matter,” said van Treeck. “We didn’t want to open the way or to encourage others to oppose the guidelines of the world church or to join us in civil disobedience. We discussed the matter in the context of our culture and ask the world church for understanding of our situation and decision. We are respectful towards our brothers and sisters in any area of our world church. We feel deeply associated with them in the love of Jesus and in the unity and mission of the church.”
 
Although there was no mention of the precedent in China, clearly the North German Union Adventists are in hopes that the General Conference will take the same attitude of tolerance toward their cultural and legal context. In Germany both the law and social values strongly condemn discrimination against women in the selection of leaders in any organization, including the Church.
 
It was also voted to require that at least 40 percent of the delegates sent by the local conferences to the next North German Union constituency session be female. About 20 percent of the delegates at this session were women.
 
A third item voted by the delegates charged the union executive committee with implementing additional study of the topic of ordination, including research to be conducted by Friedensau University, the Adventist higher education institution in Germany. The findings from this study are to be presented to the Euro-Africa Division and the General Conference.
 
There was a motion to amend the union conference constitution to delete the language that requires that the president and secretary be ordained ministers. This motion was not passed by the required two-thirds majority.
 
The North German Union Conference covers 11 states in the northern region of the German Federal Republic, including Berlin and other major urban areas. It is made up of four local conferences with a total of about 20,000 church members among a population of more than 47 million. There are 346 local churches and 149 ministers, including two women.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #416 on: April 28, 2012, 05:39:39 AM »

North German Union Conference Constituency Session Votes to Ordain Women


Submitted: Apr 27, 2012
By AT News Team   [Adventist Today--GM]


The fifth constituency session of the North German Union Conference, meeting in Geseke on April 22 and 23, was the first gathering of official Seventh-day Adventist delegates since the 1881 General Conference session to vote approval of ordination for women serving in pastoral ministry.

"... was the first gathering of official Seventh-day Adventist delegates since the 1881 General Conference session to vote approval of ordination for women serving in pastoral ministry."

When someone wrote to me this statement a month or more ago, I decided to check it out. See http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCB/GCB1863-88.pdf#Page=197. The resolution in question is dealt with in paragraphs 6 and 7 on page 197. I count a total of 40 resolutions presented to the session at one time or another, and the only one of the 40 not "adopted," "carried," or "approved" is the one on women's ordination. But somehow the failure to vote approval for that resolution has morphed over the years into a vote of approval.

Have I missed something in the GC Session minutes? Or is the pro-ordination side so bankrupt of support that it must resort to historical fiction to promote its agenda? As far as Germany goes, the precedent they are setting would seem to dictate that if culture and the laws of the land require that Sunday rather than the Sabbath be kept holy, we must comply.

Could someone please help me with this? Where is the evidence that that 1881 resolution was ever approved?
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #417 on: April 28, 2012, 05:51:07 AM »

Historic documents indicate that by the 6th century AD Celtic Christians who were not willing to adhere to the Roman teachings in the northern part of the British Isles took their boats and fled to Iceland where they isolated themselves until the Norwegian and Swedish Vikings invaded Iceland in the 9th century. No records have been discovered to indicate what happened to the Christians after that.

Johann, I would like some clarification on this since it is a topic that interests me.

Do you think 6th century might be the wrong time? Or that the Celtic Christians might have come from elsewhere other than northern Britain? The reason I ask is that Augustine didn't reach Britain on behalf of Rome until 597 AD. It seems unlikely that the persecution of the Celtic Christians could get so bad before 600 AD, particularly in the north, that some would have left the island by that time. Do you think maybe it was the 7th century instead?
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #418 on: April 28, 2012, 07:59:37 AM »

North German Union Conference Constituency Session Votes to Ordain Women


Submitted: Apr 27, 2012
By AT News Team   [Adventist Today--GM]


The fifth constituency session of the North German Union Conference, meeting in Geseke on April 22 and 23, was the first gathering of official Seventh-day Adventist delegates since the 1881 General Conference session to vote approval of ordination for women serving in pastoral ministry.

"... was the first gathering of official Seventh-day Adventist delegates since the 1881 General Conference session to vote approval of ordination for women serving in pastoral ministry."

When someone wrote to me this statement a month or more ago, I decided to check it out. See http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCB/GCB1863-88.pdf#Page=197. The resolution in question is dealt with in paragraphs 6 and 7 on page 197. I count a total of 40 resolutions presented to the session at one time or another, and the only one of the 40 not "adopted," "carried," or "approved" is the one on women's ordination. But somehow the failure to vote approval for that resolution has morphed over the years into a vote of approval.

Have I missed something in the GC Session minutes? Or is the pro-ordination side so bankrupt of support that it must resort to historical fiction to promote its agenda? As far as Germany goes, the precedent they are setting would seem to dictate that if culture and the laws of the land require that Sunday rather than the Sabbath be kept holy, we must comply.

Could someone please help me with this? Where is the evidence that that 1881 resolution was ever approved?

The way I understand it is that the resolution of ordaining women was left in a committee - and I have seen some maintain, whether right or wrong,  that it is still there, unresolved since it was neither voted nor rejected.

I will agree with you that this resolution by the Germans will be quite dramatic.

Perhaps some will leave the church because of it. We still have a number of church members who maintain that the Roman Catholic inspired commandment 10 A, "Thou shalt not ordain a female!" is the most important of them all, and that the Lord will decide who are the faithful ones on the basis of their allegiance to this man-made commandment.

Where in the special message to the Church as recorded in Rev. 14 is this given? Verse 12 refers to the commandments of God and not those made by man.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #419 on: April 28, 2012, 09:32:31 AM »

Historic documents indicate that by the 6th century AD Celtic Christians who were not willing to adhere to the Roman teachings in the northern part of the British Isles took their boats and fled to Iceland where they isolated themselves until the Norwegian and Swedish Vikings invaded Iceland in the 9th century. No records have been discovered to indicate what happened to the Christians after that.

Johann, I would like some clarification on this since it is a topic that interests me.

Do you think 6th century might be the wrong time? Or that the Celtic Christians might have come from elsewhere other than northern Britain? The reason I ask is that Augustine didn't reach Britain on behalf of Rome until 597 AD. It seems unlikely that the persecution of the Celtic Christians could get so bad before 600 AD, particularly in the north, that some would have left the island by that time. Do you think maybe it was the 7th century instead?

Last time I looked at my calender the year 597 was in the 6th century. I was referring to what we heard from the pulpit in our local church given by a senior pastor I consider one of our most conservative preachers. He told us soldiers enforced the Roman proclamations. How long would you like to face a bayonet pointing at you before you'd turn your heels around?

In case the soldiers got too seasick during the crossing to accomplish their task immediately, I have no problem counting their deeds as done mainly during the 7th century. What difference does that make? What difference does it make how long their flight took? As far as I know there is no date stamp on the documents available.

We do know that a number fled from Ireland to the island of Iona. You should visit that island on your next trip to Europe. No cars allowed from the mainland, only for those who live there. There are strong indications Colomba and others there kept the Sabbath and this is what has kindled the interest of Adventist scholars. Everything we saw on Iona is from the time after the Catholic church had cleansed the island of most of the influence of Columba. We found more of that around Loch Ness, but none of the ancient documents are found there now.

Yes, I could have said "from the end of the 6th century onwards". Would you please accept my apology for not being more accurate. I understood our speaker referring to the 6th century.

The following quotation from Celtic Christianity in Wikipedia might be of interest:
Quote
Definition

"Celtic Christianity" has been conceived of in different ways at different times. Some ideas are fairly consistent. Above all, Celtic Christianity is seen as being inherently distinct from – and generally opposed to – the Catholic Church.[9] Other common claims are that Celtic Christianity denied the authority of the Pope, was less authoritarian than the Catholic Church, more spiritual, friendlier to women, more connected with nature, and more comfortable dealing with the ancient Celtic religion.[9] One view, which gained substantial scholarly traction in the 19th century, was that there was a "Celtic Church", a significantly organized Christian body or denomination uniting the Celtic peoples and separating them from the "Roman" church of continental Europe.[10] Others have been content to speak of "Celtic Christianity" as consisting of certain traditions and beliefs intrinsic to the Celts.[11]

I recall an Adventist Bible Scholar, Dr. Hardinge, working on his doctoral thesis at the University of London telling me his conclusion that the early fugitives from Ireland/ Scotland fleeing to Iceland because of the Sabbath question. I do not know how long they found refuge in Iona before going on to Iceland.

Who were the Celts? - is another interesting question. Linguistic, cultural, DNA?

Iceland still maintains the most ancient language of Northern Europe. Therefore Icelanders have regarded themselves as Norwegians. Recent DNA tests indicate, however, there might be even more Celtic/ Irish blood in our veins so the question remains if we are Celts or Norse?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 09:42:55 AM by Johann »
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