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[tinka]

and...one of the other most recent things they did as they sent me their papers for several years and as I read their quotes of EW  (of course they use her more then we in some of our churches) I found after reading their lessons and realizing something really strange. I would think to my self that I did not remember much of statements of EW completely like I  my understanding ,so then, I started following along back and forth with their quotes and lo and behold they were cutting and pasting sort of to speak in terms now. One sentence joined with another an the actual quotes were seldom quoted as it was, they had to change much to bring all around to their point of view. Time after time I discovered that.  So what ever one thinks of the Reformers and how great they are, You must realize they are followers and are brought in by falsehood for them to believe as they do now. I was so upset with one of their theories that I wrote in and told them exactly what I saw and they were wrong.

It was months later they came out with a study that my husband and I went over on the subject and we just sort of laughed as it seemed to change but I told them also quit sending the papers as I did not appreciate their combining one sentence with another to come up with what was not actually said.

 I don't even think about it anymore for years as it was just another episode impact and hit of Satan to SDA ...until now and I don't like the sound of things ..for myself ..that is.. but according to Gregory.. I was told the truth mostly.  Except their secret inner voice is  to undermine the SDA church claiming we are infiltrated with Jesuits. Boy did I come lose when I started hearing that. and now SDA is not free from Catholism yet... that is the belief of a Reformer. Zing!!! or convinced by one

[Alex L. Walker]

Alex, I challenge you to read the book of Timothy. Not once do you find the word "pastor".

The only place in the New Testament where you find the word "pastor" is in Ephesians 4:11. Here it is rendered in plural, "pastors". It is never in the singular anywhere in the KJV Bible. Look for yourself!

Even the most conservative ought to be able to discover this without being labeled a "liberal"!

OK! But Johann....Paul is clear on ordination. Perhaps, you just chose to overlook that? I'm sorry but your ideas are liberal.

[Alex L. Walker]

Aliex said:

If a woman claims to be called by God to preach....she is a liar. There is no biblical foundation to support it.

Alex, let me give you a true situation:

World War II was in progress.  In a certaian country in Scandanavia the governmental authorities had removed all of the male clergy of the SDA church from their pulpits who were of a certain age range.  The only male clergy left in that country were a very few elderly clergy.

Two women believed that in these circumstances, in a time of war, the gospel needed to be preached.  So, they struck out on their own and began to hold evangelistic meetings.  During the time that they held evangelistic meetings, several thousand people, accepted Christ and requested baptism.

That presented a problem.  These women were not ordained.  They believed that God had called them to preach the gospil.  They did not believe that they should baptize.  So, the few elderly male clergy left in the country baptized their converts.

Do you believe that under these circumstances God did not call them to preach?  Do you believe that it would have been better if they had not preached the gospil in evangelistic meetings?  Do you believe that it would have been better if these several thousand, both males and females, had not been converted to Christ tlhrough their preaching.

I stand by my statement. No woman is called to "pastor" it is also unbiblical for them to be ordained.

[Alex L. Walker]

Here is a word for those who consider Billy Graham an authority (others need not read it):

Dr. Billy Graham, when asked by David Frost about women's ordination, said, "Women preach all over the world. It doesn't bother me at all from my study of the Scriptures. And there were many women preachers in the Bible." . . .

Yet, each leaves open the possibility of women as preachers. Ironically, on the same day that the SBC published its proposed revision to the "Baptist Faith and Message," USA Today carried an article about Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of the famous evangelist. In that article, Graham called her the "best preacher in the family."

From the Texas Baptist Committed, July 2000

Have I ever said I consider Billy Graham an authority? Billy happens to be Southern Baptist just like myself.....but not all of his ideas represent the SBC. It is a stretch to call him an authority!

[Alex L. Walker]

Here is a word for those who consider Billy Graham an authority (others need not read it):

Dr. Billy Graham, when asked by David Frost about women's ordination, said, "Women preach all over the world. It doesn't bother me at all from my study of the Scriptures. And there were many women preachers in the Bible." . . .

Yet, each leaves open the possibility of women as preachers. Ironically, on the same day that the SBC published its proposed revision to the "Baptist Faith and Message," USA Today carried an article about Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of the famous evangelist. In that article, Graham called her the "best preacher in the family."

From the Texas Baptist Committed, July 2000

Billy Grahm did not get a lot of scripture right including that, BTW has anyone came across the decked out "ornament, many color flamboyant hair where the hair and eyelashes met"  lady --worse then Tammie Faye Baker appeared.  I discovered it is part of the "Grahm Kingdom".  I do not claim to dislike Billy Grahm or his wife, I listened to him a lot but knew the jumping off point but always felt sorry he never grasped "scripture as it stated" on the Sabbath, and death and rapture but so it goes. But the lady had been hilarious for me to imagine her next concoction of hair as her facial expressions looked to be off into another world while squeaking her voice into such dramatizations. Just watched it the other night and I think her hair must be falling out as now she finally had to cut it. I turned it as I laughed again of such stupid vanity. Almost like someone else on tv that you get glimpses of once in a while. Oh my, Scripture does say their will be strange dress in last days. lol  I just did not like to see some on Hope and abn being shown going that route. so I stated about it. 

Conclusion of Billy Grahm, he made no waves of any doctrine therefore he drew in the most money! Sort of what Olsen is doing. and that leads people into falseness of Ten Commandments or Gods Law

OK! The SBC including myself have issues with the Adventist on grave sleeping...That is NOT biblical either. Neither is the Adventist position on hell! There are many strong differences between Adventist and the SBC.

[Alex L. Walker]

Paul said that but there is a clear contradiction with God appointing women in political and spiritual authority, and Paul's later comments against it.  How do you reconcile that contradiction?

Nope, Paul made his position clear time and time again.

I cannot believe many here except myself, Gailon, Bob, and Tinka are the ones who are biblically correct on our position.

How is there ANY controdiction?

[Gregory]

Johann is correct in the comments that he has made about the SDA Reform Movementat WW I--1914-1918.  I am not nearly as well informed about this period of their history as I am about the WW II period and Nazi Germany.

I First came into contact with them in the period of 1959 though the 1960s.  At that time, their U.S. leadership said very little about the WW I period of their history.   Rather they concentrated on the Nazi Germany period.  Very few people in the U.S. are aquainted wjth the issues that arose at that time.  Other than superficial comments about it, little has been said about it until the SDA historian that I previously mentiond began to research and write about it.  (Is his name Ron Lawson?)

Anyway, they are an interesting group.  With the passage to time, they had split.  A regional headquarters of one of their splits is located in the Denver area and I have often driven by it.  The leaders of that group that I have talked to seem much less agressive that what I once saw in their leadership in the early 60s.

[Alex L. Walker]

NOTE- Perhaps, I should have been more clearer....My issue is a woman pastoring a congregation. I used the word "preach", but I should have said "pastor."

It is COMPLETELY unbiblical for a woman to be a pastor and ask to be ordained.

[Gregory]

Ronald Lawson is professor of sociology in the urban studies department at Queens College, the City University of New York.

He has pubblished a number it studies on aspects of the SDA Church.  His works on aspects of the SDA Church in Nazi Germany have contributed much to our knowledge of this time and era.

[Murcielago]

NOTE- Perhaps, I should have been more clearer....My issue is a woman pastoring a congregation. I used the word "preach", but I should have said "pastor."

It is COMPLETELY unbiblical for a woman to be a pastor and ask to be ordained.

Alex, the Bible says many things to many different people. It can be convenient to confine differences of opinion into boxed terms like "conservative" or "liberal" but that is a patently intellectually dishonest form of avoiding reality in it's largeness. God is not anywhere near as small as we sometimes try to make him, when we decide that he must be created in our own image and after our likeness, when we presume to impose our personal smallness on him. Our personal dislikes, whether it be women, jewelry, or anything else, is not justification for claiming that God can be no bigger than us in his embrace.

[Johann]

Starck, Stark, - not until now did I recall the name of the Reformed Union president, but I still do not recall if it was spelled with a c or not. They were both Germans, but lived in Denmark from where they reigned over all of the Reformed churches in Europe. They remained in Denmark after they joined our church. Many of the other Reformed people followed them into our fellowship, so there remained only a handful. Some of them have worked diligently in an attempt to reorganize their work in Europe. They also split when their leader divorced his wife, some remaining with the old leader while others refused to have anything to do with a divorced person.

Many years ago I met an American family who were visiting England. Seems like we talked almost a whole Sabbath afternoon in the garden by Newbold College. They were brought up in the Reformed SDA church in USA where they were taught the SDA was Babylon, and they must never visit one of our churches or they would get contaminated, since the big church did not follow EGW, and none of them were vegetarians, and several other things.

On a Sabbath they happened to be in a town where there was no Reformed church, so they decided to venture into Sabbath School and church, just to learn for themselves how wicked the those Adventist were. To their great surprise they found the Adventists following the true pattern even better than themselves, and they had a most wonderful fellowship so superior to the critical and condemning spirit they were used to in their assemblies. They found the same as they returned to their home town and visited the local Adventist church.

He said they had been brought up on a big lie, but now they enjoyed true Christian fellowship and people who really followed the Christian pattern they had been taught was absent among Adventists. Reformers, he said, were kept under a lid of ignorance.

Lets avoid living under such a lid of ignorance.

[Johann]

After more than 60 years together, Jimmy Carter has announced himself at odds with the Southern Baptist Church -- and he's decided it's time they go their separate ways. Via Feministing, the former president called the decision "unavoidable" after church leaders prohibited women from being ordained and insisted women be "subservient to their husbands." Said Carter in an essay in The Age:

    At its most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their own communities.

And, later:

    The truth is that male religious leaders have had -- and still have -- an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/07/20/jimmy-carter-leaves-church-over-treatment-of-women/

[Gregory]

For the latest on the SDA Church in China see:

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5246/archives/issue-2012-1509/09-cn-wilson-gc-leaders-visit-adventists-in-china

[tinka]

OK! The SBC including myself have issues with the Adventist on grave sleeping...That is NOT biblical either. Neither is the Adventist position on hell! There are many strong differences between Adventist and the SBC.

Maybe an easy way to look at this Alex is this:

There is only One "Immortal"

If all that sin-- does not die, them we are Immortal too

Most believe, we have a soul or (ghost) that goes back to heaven after we die, and the wicked go down to hell. There is no Hell except the grave is called that and death called a sting.

Hell or more real is the Hell fire  "fire of destruction after the 1000 years  that Satan is loosed on earth with his angels. Even the wicked dead until that time.. know nothing under the sun, hear, worship, love or look out for others as so now very popular to believe. It is not biblical.

It is the breath of life that (only is returned to God as he gave it the moment of birth) Breath of Life and Spirit in that context is the same
Then at birth called now a "living soul"

All souls shall die, or if one dies on the side of Jesus, it mentions we are asleep in Jesus,

People that have went to sleep in Jesus or died do not know anything that is going on under the sun

We are only mortal and Only God Immortal.

The first Resurrection is for those who sleep in Jesus and righteous, No Spirits or ghosts of human beings, go anywhere until that time. Only the invisible Holy Spirit is in ghost form  not humans.  Satan yet has that power but not us.   The second Resurrection is for the unjust after the thousand years, If you read in rev. it is plain, very plain
 

In your belief, maybe or for sure the Catholics, believe we will be looking down from heaven for eternity to watch eternal burning of bodies. Not so either, It only means "until" stubble" and never more a chance for eternity. as they will be as they never were " forever" or finality of the wicked.

The Heavens and earth are made new and Creation is then witnessed by the saved and then Holy City descends in the place of original Garden of Eden,

It is important to find truth for your own individual satisfaction. At least we will be accountable for doing so.

That is why it says to beware of false Prophets



 It's a wonderful feeling to follow and read actual Biblical timeline. It is wisdom and feeling of being secure in God's word. It don't take long to read Rev


EGW was only called to present 3 rd Angels message and the inspiration to make fine details of "prophecy " more clear. Never did she give out doctrine of her own but gave better insight to symbols and put all History together to show Bible was "Infinite truth." and to correct fanaticism of a lot of people and to warn them of wrong and doctrine  directing back only by Biblical scripture. You must realize also people that like to "progress to change" will not be happy with reading as she "always pointed back to scripture" and nothing more and she did not call herself a "prophet" like the people did.

Our religion is simple but only for those that give self up to truth. SDA has only been the last stepping stone from Martin Luther, Lutherans, Methodist, Baptist etc, etc, to present day to finally bring back "all " the law of God and people from early ages no longer knew. After that Jesus comes. and truth is spreading very fast but few will heed.  Most Adventist, do come in because of History of original Sabbath change but don't really can't seem to shake self wants and changes on how to abide in simple love back to Jesus with almost no change of their characters. Yet we have some of the best Evangelist, preachers, and teachers and christians in the whole world that God is still leading that will multiply from other folds and as the sands of the seas while a lot of Adventists will be lost because of the advantage they were given. 

[Johann]

How much does one reveal of what has gone on in one's own family?

We had a member with this selfish interpretation of Scripture which some of you relish. After he had relieved his selfish desires on some minor girls in the family, he fondled the Bible in front of the pastor, demanding if this book didn't say you should love children? Then he demanded to know where this book states that this love should not include showing your love with the genitals.

Did you read the reasons Jimmy Carter departed from the Southern Baptists after 60 years of membership? A selfish male interpretation of Scripture?

PS. The girls involved were scared and did not report until they were grown up, and even then did it only reluctantly. By then it was way too late to notify the police. This was when they all met with a pastor.