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Author Topic: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason  (Read 281583 times)

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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #315 on: April 04, 2012, 05:55:20 AM »

I respect and appreciate people whose world is black and white. Simplicity is a virtue that removes the complications of life. When math consists of 1, 2, 3, but has no integers, addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are simple. When there is 1 choice instead of 10, decisions are easy. I know a young man who can only eat lunch at precisely 12:30pm, and he will not put a bite in his mouth if the clock says 12:29. That removes many decisions and choices from his life, but it is rather amusing when he crosses a time zone. The validity of time zones is called into question, in his agony, and that calls into question the validity of his own time zone as Greenwich Mean predates his. Then comes the nightmare of daylight saving... To harbour with folk who break their fast at 6:00am instead of 7, Raises feelings of fun and fear. But can he break from the mold?

Very very true Murcielago, that life has many complications, but the rules of God are not and simple to understand. Did God give us complications, No
Did the devil?? yes. and that is black and white!
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #316 on: April 04, 2012, 06:04:06 AM »


[/quote]
The following quote from EGW is taken from the Church Manual page 31.
Quote
“I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work and to say what plans shall be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body.”
9T 260.
[/quote]

That does not mean what you want it to mean by far..
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #317 on: April 04, 2012, 07:19:51 AM »

Tinka, you are a student of history.  Read the book that I cited.  It is the best that there is on the life of William Foy.

Yes, there were racial concerns involved.  However, the primary issue was that Foy did not understand the 3rd vision.  It ran counter to what he believed. Foy felt that he could not preach something that appeared to him to be against the Bible.  Yet, he could not find it in his heart to reject the visions.  Faced with that problem he went to the Lord and asked God to take the responsibility away from him.  God did.

His request was not a rejection.  He had proclaimed the visions for 3 months at a time, twice.  He had done what God had asked him to do. 

It is easy for those of us who live 165 years later to point out the humaness in William Foy.  It may be easy for us to point to a weakness and say that he should have relied upon God to strengthen him and bring him to understanding. But, I would ask everyone here:  Would you have done as much as Foy did?  Would you have stopped earning your living to go and preach a strange message for three months and do it twice.  I cannot say that I would have had that level of faith.

Foy was not Foss, and I will suggest that we should recognize that.

Thank you Gregory here is a little of what I reread. Just had thought on why when God knows ending from beginning why he gave Foy the vision other then a "test:??

THE EXPERIENCE OF
                        WILLIAM ELLIS FOY


     IN THE HEIGHT OF THE ADVENT AWAKENING WILLIAM FOY, A LIGHT-SKINNED MULATTO RESIDING IN NEW ENGLAND, WAS GIVEN TWO OR THREE VISIONS RELATING TO THE SECOND ADVENT OF CHRIST. SOMETIME BEFORE THE DISAPPOINTMENT OF OCTOBER 22, 1844, ELLEN HARMON HEARD HIM SPEAK IN BEETHOVEN HALL IN PORTLAND, MAINE. SOMETIME AFTER THE 1844 DISAPPOINTMENT, UNBEKNOWN TO ELLEN HARMON AT FIRST, HE WAS PRESENT IN A MEETING HELD IN THE COUNTRYSIDE EAST OF PORTLAND, TOWARD CAPE ELIZABETH, AT WHICH SHE SPOKE, TELLING OF HER FIRST VISION. WHILE SHE WAS SPEAKING, FOY STOOD TO HIS FEET AND PRAISED THE LORD, DECLARING THAT IT WAS JUST WHAT HE HAD SEEN. AFTER THE MEETING HE WANTED TO TALK WITH HER, AND THEY HAD A LITTLE VISIT.  {1BIO 488.1}
     IN 1835, FOY AS A YOUNG MAN, GAVE HIS HEART TO CHRIST AND BECAME A MEMBER OF THE FREEWILL BAPTIST CHURCH. SEVEN YEARS LATER, IN 1842, WHILE HE WAS PREPARING TO TAKE HOLY ORDERS AS AN EPISCOPAL MINISTER, TWO VISIONS WERE GIVEN HIM. ALTHOUGH DEEPLY RELIGIOUS, HE WAS BY HIS OWN TESTIMONY, "OPPOSED TO THE DOCTRINE OF JESUS' NEAR APPROACH."  {1BIO 488.2}
     THE VISIONS RELATING TO THE NEAR ADVENT OF CHRIST AND TO LAST-DAY EVENTS CREATED IN HIM A VERY DEFINITE INTEREST IN THE ADVENT MOVEMENT, AND HE JOINED OTHERS IN HERALDING THE MESSAGE OF THE EXPECTATION OF CHRIST'S SOON RETURN.  {1BIO 488.3}
     THE TWO INITIAL VISIONS OF WILLIAM FOY, TOGETHER WITH A BRIEF SKETCH OF HIS CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE, WERE PUBLISHED IN 1845 IN A PAMPHLET IN PORTLAND, MAINE. THE FIRST VISION WAS GIVEN TO HIM ON JANUARY 18, 1842, WHILE HE WAS ATTENDING SERVICE IN A BOSTON CHURCH ON SOUTHARK STREET. EYEWITNESSES TO THE EXPERIENCE TESTIFY THAT HE


                                489

WAS IN VISION TWO AND A HALF HOURS. A PHYSICIAN WHO EXAMINED HIM TESTIFIED THAT HE COULD FIND NO APPEARANCE OF LIFE "EXCEPT AROUND THE HEART." IN HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL ACCOUNT FOY DECLARES, "MY BREATH LEFT ME."  {1BIO 488.4}
     IN THE FIRST REVELATION FOY VIEWED THE GLORIOUS REWARD OF THE FAITHFUL AND THE PUNISHMENT OF SINNERS. HE FELT THE DUTY TO DECLARE WHAT HE HAD SEEN TO OTHERS, BUT NOT BEING INSTRUCTED TO RELATE THE VISION, HE DISCLOSED IT TO NO ONE. BUT HE HAD NO PEACE OF MIND. IN A SECOND REVELATION GIVEN TO HIM, ON FEBRUARY 4, 1842, HE VIEWED MULTITUDES OF EARTH, THOSE WHO HAD NOT DIED AND THOSE WHO HAD BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD, BEING ASSEMBLED TO RECEIVE THEIR REWARD. IN CONNECTION WITH THIS REVELATION HE WAS INSTRUCTED, "THOU MUST REVEAL THOSE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN, AND ALSO WARN THY FELLOW CREATURES TO FLEE FROM THE WRATH TO COME."  {1BIO 489.1}
     FOY'S UNWILLINGNESS TO RELATE TO OTHERS WHAT HAD BEEN SHOWN TO HIM STEMMED FROM BOTH THE PREJUDICE AGAINST ANY WHO CLAIMED TO HAVE DIVINE REVELATIONS AND THE PREJUDICE AGAINST THOSE OF HIS COLOR. HE QUESTIONED IN HIS MIND, "WHY SHOULD THESE THINGS BE GIVEN TO ME TO BEAR TO THE WORLD?"  {1BIO 489.2}
     A FEW DAYS LATER THE PASTOR OF THE BLOOMFIELD STREET CHURCH IN BOSTON CALLED UPON FOY TO RELATE THE VISIONS IN HIS HOUSE OF WORSHIP. RELUCTANTLY HE CONSENTED, AND THE NEXT EVENING HE FOUND A LARGE CONGREGATION ASSEMBLED AWAITING HIS MESSAGE. AS HE BEGAN TO SPEAK, HIS FEAR LEFT HIM, AND HE RELATED WITH GREAT FREEDOM THE THINGS THAT WERE SHOWN TO HIM, TO A CONGREGATION THAT GAVE RAPT ATTENTION.  {1BIO 489.3}
     WITH THIS AS A BEGINNING HE TRAVELED FOR THREE MONTHS, DELIVERING HIS MESSAGES TO CROWDED HOUSES OF ALL DENOMINATIONS. HE HAD A GOOD COMMAND OF LANGUAGE. AS HE DESCRIBED THE HEAVENLY WORLD, THE NEW JERUSALEM, AND THE COMPASSIONATE LOVE OF CHRIST, AND EXHORTED THE UNCONVERTED TO SEEK GOD, MANY RESPONDED TO HIS ENTREATIES. AS HIS FAMILY NEEDED SUPPORT, AFTER THREE MONTHS IN THE FIELD, FOY RETIRED FROM PUBLIC WORK TO LABOR WITH HIS HANDS. HE ENGAGED IN SUCH WORK FOR THREE MONTHS, AND THEN, FEELING IMPELLED TO STAND BEFORE THE PEOPLE, HE AGAIN TOOK UP HIS PUBLIC MINISTRY, EXPECTING SOON TO SEE HIS SAVIOUR WHEN HE SHOULD COME. WHEN SPEAKING, HE WORE THE CLERICAL ROBES OF THE EPISCOPAL CLERGY.  {1BIO 489.4}
     ACCORDING TO J. N. LOUGHBOROUGH, NEAR THE TIME OF THE EXPECTATION IN 1844 FOY WAS GIVEN A THIRD VISION IN WHICH WERE


                              490

PRESENTED THREE PLATFORMS THAT HE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE LIGHT OF HIS BELIEF IN THE IMMINENT COMING OF CHRIST. ACCORDING TO LOUGHBOROUGH, IN PERPLEXITY FOY CEASED PUBLIC WORK. IT IS KNOWN THAT IN THE 1850S AND THROUGH MID-LIFE HE FILLED POSITIONS AS A FREEWILL BAPTIST MINISTER IN MASSACHUSETTS AND MAINE, AND THEN TURNED TO FARMING IN SULLIVAN COUNTY IN MAINE. WHILE BUT LITTLE IS KNOWN OF HIS LATER EXPERIENCE, HIS TOMBSTONE BEARS THE RECORD THAT HE DIED IN 1893.  {1BIO 489.5}
     THERE IS NO OCCASION TO QUESTION THE GENUINENESS OF WILLIAM FOY'S EXPERIENCE. LOUGHBOROUGH FELT THAT THE VISIONS BORE CLEAR EVIDENCES OF BEING THE GENUINE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD. MORE SIGNIFICANT, PERHAPS, IS THE FACT THAT ELLEN WHITE, WHO AS NOTED ABOVE HAD SOME ACQUAINTANCE WITH HIM, IN AN INTERVIEW IN 1912 TREATED HIS EXPERIENCE AS GENUINE.--AUTHOR.


                                 SOURCES

DF 231. "THE CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE OF WILLIAM E. FOY, TOGETHER WITH THE TWO
     VISIONS HE RECEIVED IN THE MONTHS OF JANUARY AND FEBRUARY, 1842."
     PORTLAND: J. AND C. H. PEARSON, 1845. ELLEN G. WHITE MANUSCRIPT 131, 1906. LOUGHBOROUGH, J. N. THE GREAT SECOND ADVENT MOVEMENT. WASHINGTON,
     D.C.: REVIEW AND HERALD, 1909. PAGES 145-147.  {1BIO 490.1}
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #318 on: April 04, 2012, 08:09:23 AM »

What is a ring if it is not an ornament? I am sure your answer will be a "symbol" a symbol you put on your finger for who? , you ? your wife? or to prove you made promises to God on your marriage ?or, why do you have to convince other people as they come up with their challenges of evil surmising. The marriage is between man and woman and promises to God and to ask his blessing while man and women take on their "vanity ornament??? EGW highly advised.. don't do it in good conscience to cause a stumbling block to someone else it wasn't worth the loss of eternity.  Thank you for your posting and your courtesy but I do know that the Holy Spirit did not give confusion for EGW to bongle up. You see "vanity" is a crucial thing to overcome and it will not enter in.  So who do you Please, God or man's surmising???

Actually, this is no different then the Catholics superseding what God has said with no confusion other then man's. 

So in your post above, why did they quite wearing it?? did you miss that point, it was for a better conscience of what was right as they bowed to please man's surmising at first...

Is that what he said?
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Sheba

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #319 on: April 04, 2012, 08:51:43 AM »

oops,
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #320 on: April 04, 2012, 09:04:30 AM »

Here's to the moments that are stolen
And stealing is certainly wrong,
But after those moments are stolen
To whom do they really belong?

For if my wife ne'er comes to claim them
And your husband ne're makes a fuss
Let's hold our heads up proudly
And say they belong to us.

For if you had bushels of apples,
And left them alone to rot.
And a neighbor came by and ate them
Would you blame him? Certainly not!

For apples were made to be eaten
And moments were made for delight.
And that's what we'll tell our conscience
If it keeps us awake to night.
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #321 on: April 04, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »

Are you Horsethief ?? ;)
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #322 on: April 04, 2012, 09:44:36 AM »



Is that what he said?
[/quote]

It was simple reasoning and questions to the oppositions of clear foundational beliefs.

If you really look at what the stumbling bock has developed into, just enter many churches and watch 3abn or Hope channel. Jewelry has now developed into diamonds, pearls, rubies and what ever, in the nose, in the ears, in the flesh and members getting tattoos along with the bands, rap and the rest. If one Adventist has just one item what makes the difference if they have all on at once?? not a thing, I will not be in the realm of someone's elses loss of eternity because of their love of self display in all things followed by me agreeing. and you know what else,  the conference is well aware of it all. so does a person think he has to go along with opinions of conferences as Mercilago wants to point out and use.  EGW when writing what he posted  suggests that it should take many to stand firm against changes of foundation and not to change it to their desires or the peoples.  That is the point if you read the whole book or books. So now with the majority's liberal agenda mounting higher and higher, yes I do think Jesus will come soon as those are the ones that will turn against "keepers of the foundation testamonies of Jesus. It's not hard to witness this happening now as Satan will also send in instrumentsto claim of Sunday being the time to change. Seems so unreal but this is just the start.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #323 on: April 04, 2012, 09:51:42 AM »



Is that what he said?
Quote
It was simple reasoning and questions to the oppositions of clear foundational beliefs.

If you really look at what the stumbling bock has developed into, just enter many churches and watch 3abn or Hope channel. Jewelry has now developed into diamonds, pearls, rubies and what ever, in the nose, in the ears, in the flesh and members getting tattoos along with the bands, rap and the rest. If one Adventist has just one item what makes the difference if they have all on at once?? not a thing, I will not be in the realm of someone's elses loss of eternity because of their love of self display in all things followed by me agreeing. and you know what else,  the conference is well aware of it all. so does a person think he has to go along with opinions of conferences as Mercilago wants to point out and use.  EGW when writing what he posted  suggests that it should take many to stand firm against changes of foundation and not to change it to their desires or the peoples.  That is the point if you read the whole book or books. So now with the majority's liberal agenda mounting higher and higher, yes I do think Jesus will come soon as those are the ones that will turn against "keepers of the foundation testamonies of Jesus. It's not hard to witness this happening now as Satan will also send in instrumentsto claim of Sunday being the time to change. Seems so unreal but this is just the start.


Is that what she said?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 10:29:06 AM by Johann »
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #324 on: April 04, 2012, 10:32:23 AM »

Burned Biscuits
Quote
    When I was a kid, my Mom liked to make breakfast food for dinner every now and then.

    I remember one night in particular when she had made
    breakfast after a long, hard day at work. On that evening
    so long ago, my Mom placed a plate of eggs, sausage and
    extremely burned biscuits in front of my dad. I remember waiting
    to see if anyone noticed!

    Yet all my dad did was reach for his biscuit, smile at my Mom
    and ask me how my day was at school. I don't remember
    what I told him that night, but I do remember watching him
    smear butter and jelly on that ugly burned biscuit. He ate every
    bite of that thing... Never made a face nor uttered a word.

    When I got up from the table that evening, I remember hearing
    my Mom apologize to my dad for burning the biscuits.
    And I'll never forget what he said: "Honey, I love burned
    biscuits every now and then."

    Later that night, I went to kiss Daddy good night and
    I asked him if he really liked his biscuits burned.
    He wrapped me in his arms and said, "Your Momma put in
    a hard day at work today and she's real tired. And besides,
    a little burned biscuit never hurt anyone!"

    As I've grown older, I've thought about that many times.
    Life is full of imperfect things and imperfect people.
    I'm not the best at hardly anything, and I forget birthdays and
    anniversaries just like everyone else. But what I've learned
    over the years is that learning to accept each other's faults -
    and choosing to celebrate each other's differences - is one
    of the most important keys to creating a healthy, growing,
    and lasting relationship.

    And that's my prayer for you today... That you will learn to take the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of your life and lay them at the feet of God. Because in the end, He's the only One who will be able to give you a relationship where a burnt biscuit isn't a deal-breaker!

    We could extend this to any relationship. In fact, understanding is the base of any relationship, be it husband-wife or parent-child or friendship!

    "Don't put the key to your happiness in someone else's pocket -
    keep It in your own."

    So, please pass me a biscuit, and yes, the burned one will do
    just fine.
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #325 on: April 04, 2012, 11:21:12 AM »

The inspired writings of EGW were not to keep burning the biscuits! So it does sound like a pulpit story but don't really seem to go with the background you previously stated about your dad and who your named after.

To tell the truth as a wife, mother and grandmother, I absolutely would not put burned biscuits on the table for consumption! They would be in the trash, unless somebody had pigs to feed.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 11:25:33 AM by tinka »
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Snoopy

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #326 on: April 04, 2012, 11:27:54 AM »

Good grief.    :help:
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #327 on: April 04, 2012, 11:33:17 AM »

Yep, unbelievable, but I did not see any help signs when
Bob was called a Jesuit, I could not believe what I read over and over to really believe what was said and kept thinking I was reading wrong and from whom.  No  :help: there either. 

But in reality, what would you think if someone put burnt food out for your consumption.  Hmmm, something wrong someplace.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #328 on: April 04, 2012, 12:35:23 PM »

What is a ring if it is not an ornament? I am sure your answer will be a "symbol" a symbol you put on your finger for who? , you ? your wife? or to prove you made promises to God on your marriage ?or, why do you have to convince other people as they come up with their challenges of evil surmising. The marriage is between man and woman and promises to God and to ask his blessing while man and women take on their "vanity ornament??? EGW highly advised.. don't do it in good conscience to cause a stumbling block to someone else it wasn't worth the loss of eternity.  Thank you for your posting and your courtesy but I do know that the Holy Spirit did not give confusion for EGW to bongle up. You see "vanity" is a crucial thing to overcome and it will not enter in.  So who do you Please, God or man's surmising???

Actually, this is no different then the Catholics superseding what God has said with no confusion other then man's. 

So in your post above, why did they quite wearing it?? did you miss that point, it was for a better conscience of what was right as they bowed to please man's surmising at first...

You have said a lot, but never answered the question, when and for what reason did she quit wearing the wedding ring?
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #329 on: April 04, 2012, 02:31:33 PM »

Read again the post, She put it away never to wear it again knowing in her conscience what she believed was truth. If that is not the case then she should not have put it away never to be worn again. as stated!
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