Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Alex L. Walker]

Most Baptist, especially the Southern Baptist, where I belong is TOTALLY against women clergy.

I stand firm on my belief that a woman's job within the church is to remain quiet.

[Murcielago]

Most Baptist, especially the Southern Baptist, where I belong is TOTALLY against women clergy.

I stand firm on my belief that a woman's job within the church is to remain quiet.

But Alex, most Baptists, and especially Southern Baptists, are completely against you on other strongly held positions that you adhere to. Would you agree that you are wrong on those matters, as per the firmly held beliefs/doctrines of the Baptists? If you are right and the Southern Baptist Convention is wrong on those matters, could they be wrong on others?

[Gregory]

The Faith and Message [enacted in 2000] change did not address of whether women should be ordained, only whether they could be pastors who lead congregations. The change also did not say what should happen to the 1,600 or so Southern Baptist clergywomen who existed at the time, about 100 of whom were leading congregations.
 
Because of the traditional Baptist emphasis on the autonomy of individual churches and the fact that the Southern Baptist Convention is more of a congregation union than an hierarchical denomination, the change was not binding on individual Southern Baptists and the denomination’s 41,000 local congregations remained free to ordain women and hire them as pastors. Still, the fact that a change was made at all sent a powerful message and was designed to influence decisions at the congregational level.

Here it is in a nutshell:
1) The Suthern Baptist Revised Statement of belief in 2000 restricted clergy to males.  It did not address ordination.
 The 200 revision was a change from the 1963 revision of the 1925 statements of belief.

2) In Southern Baptist practice individual churches are independent as to who they select a pastors and who they ordain.

In soummation: Suthern Baptist statements of belief discourage female clergy but local congregations may ordain and elect female clergy and ramain within the Southern Baptist denomination.

Julie Pennington-Russell was voted on Sunday [JUne 19, 2007]  to become senior pastor of an Atlanta-area megachurch. The historic decision that went without dispute makes the congregation the largest church of Southern Baptist heritage to be led by a woman.

"Without a doubt, this is a major development," commented the Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and one of America's pre-eminent Evangelical leaders, in a blog post when initial reports about Pennington-Russell's near-confirmation as head of First Baptist Church of Decatur, Ga., came out.

In a closed session on Sunday after morning worship, some 500 members elected the married mother of two to lead the nearly 2,700-member church, according to The Waco Tribune-Herald. Only five hands of dissent were visible at most, said First Baptist's interim pastor, Dock Hollingsworth.

Pennington-Russell, 46, currently pastors Calvary Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. According to the female pastor, Calvary was the first Baptist church in Texas to call a woman as a senior pastor in 1998.

 

[Alex L. Walker]

If you are referring to whether a homosexual can pastor, I believe the Southern Baptist Church would agree with me that it would be ok as long as the homosexual was not engaging in homosexual sex.


Gregory: Come to the southern baptist association I beong too. I will assure you that the pastors would overwelmingly agree with my stand on women clergy.

[Bob Pickle]

Johann,

In what specific ways are Adventists today following the teachings of Augustine?

By following his teachings on the role of women. He seemed to tie this all together, so if Rome gains your little finger they will try to catch the whole hand as well. The next step could be infant baptism. Why not just sprinkle a few drops of holy water as you have your child dedication? Not too many at first, it should not create a suspicion right at the beginning.

Johann, in what way are Adventists today following the teachings of Augustine on the role of women? I do not recall reading any Adventists who quote Augustine on this topic. They may cite Ellen White, Paul, Moses, etc., but not Augustine.

Self-proclaimed anti-trinitarians make the same sort of claim regarding Adventists who believe in the Trinity, that those Adventists got the Trinity doctrine from Rome. But while I hear such Adventists quote Desire of Ages, I do not hear them basing their beliefs on Roman Catholic authors.

So we need more than just the claim that it comes from Rome. We need a clear-cut paper trail, showing how Adventists have gotten their understanding of the role of women from Augustine rather than from Paul.

[Alex L. Walker]

Also, if God did not create homosexuals, why do animals also engage in homosexual activity?

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

It is an irony that the evangelicals so clearly understand the issue of ordination while we vet the issue and indeed fondly follow Fallen Protestantism on it's road to Rome.

I have had the pleasure of doing a dozen seminars for evangelical pastors entitled "The Power of Exemption". These are mostly small "congregational" governance churches, some with and some without a 501(c) 3 designation. While the focus is on positioning the church community to help their own paritioners and communities via several programs, it has been noticable that not a single "pastor" has participated that is of the female gender, yet many women have come out to find ministries they can use to enhance the church in their communities.

I can tell you that is the Seventh-day Adventist church adopts the Odination of women we will become the laughing stock of the evangelical world as they see us abrogate the Bible as our standard of Faith.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[tinka]

....and the church seems to fall. (quote)

This has to be the era and time for this to happen as all seem to be falling away as separation begins.

What else is it and how can it stop?

If this is what has to happen before the Second Coming, do we really want it to stop?

Bring it on -and that is why it is very interesting to watch and read where everybody comes from on their comments.  Reasoning for the "new age" change is really amazing.

[Bob Pickle]

Not at all, Alex. You are basing your "faith" on a translation which is an interpretation in tune with the Roman Catholic view. Most modern translations make it clear that this could apply to both male and female deacons.

Johann, one very real problem is that the women's ordination movement relies at least in part in misinformation. I say "misinformation" because a proponent recently told me that they understood that no GC Session had ever voted against ordaining women, and that the 1881 GC Session had voted for it, none of which is true.

I do not see how 1 Tim. 3:2 and Tit. 1:6 are verses that, in the Greek, can apply to both genders. Are either of these verses what you were thinking of?

What is the reason why our leadership is spreading the Great Controversy with one hand while they bow at the altar of Rome with the other knee?

This sounds like a pretty extreme statement. Can you support it with solid evidence?

Yes, you have the words of Paul - as interpreted by the ancient Roman tradition while there is, as far as I have seen, not the slightest support for this in any of Ellen G White's writings.

Do you find anything in her writings that says anything different? I do not base my understanding of Paul's words on Roman tradition.

Do you support the current, apparent rebellion, even though it violates the SoP? Or do you think these unions and conference should wait until after the study commission process is completed in 2014/2015?

[Bob Pickle]

"How far-reaching in its results was the influence of that one Hebrew woman, and she an exile and a slave! The whole future life of Moses, the great mission which he fulfilled as the leader of Israel, testifies to the importance of the work of the Christian mother. There is no other work that can equal this. To a very great extent the mother holds in her own hands the destiny of her children" (PP 244).

Thus, there is no higher calling for a woman than that of being a Christian mother. That doesn't mean that there's nothing else she can do. But it does mean that there is nothing else that can equal that. The position of local pastor or even GC president is at the very least one notch lower than that of Christian mother.

[Gregory]

1881:  I think that you meant 1887, but I could be wrong.

As to 1887, the General Conference (26th annual session) voted to give EGW the credentials of an ordained minsiter.   No, they did not vote to ordain woman.

[Bob Pickle]

No, I really was told that in 1881 a resolution to ordain women was voted by a GC Session. So I checked it out in the GC Session minutes and found out that that was the only one of around 40 resolutions that isn't marked adopted, carried, or approved.

It, like at least two other resolutions, was referred to a committee, that one to the GC Comm., and the other two to the Committee on Resolutions. The other two were brought back in separate meetings, one being modified, and were then adopted. But the one on ordaining women, I couldn't find anywhere where it was brought back to the session for a vote.

And yet I was told that the only resolution not adopted was adopted.

Another problem amongst women's ordination proponents is other views held by some of the more vocal ones. For example, this month one has publicly stated that Desire of Ages is inspired fiction. Another one has stated that he believes that other Bible writers as well as Ellen White misunderstood what Gen. 3:16 really says, as a way to discount what Paul's writings say on the subject. And yet another stated that Matthew and Luke "discovered" the virgin birth in 80 AD, 75 years after the alleged event occurred, thus indicating that the virgin birth never occurred.

So of course when you have skeptics like that trumpeting the issue of women's ordination, you wonder where all this is heading. Not that everyone trumpeting it is a skeptic, but I have not heard anti-women's ordination proponents spouting off such infidel nonsense.

(Since I assume you do not hold such sentiments yourself, I felt I could use the phrase "infidel nonsense" without offending you. )

[Gregory]

1881:  You are stimulating my mind and bringing back memories long forgotten.  I don't have it all yet.  I will take your word for it.      

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

She was given those credentials to speak to that conference.

Shortly thereafter she was sent to Siberia only to be victims of her providential interventionary missives from down under. They did not send her with credentials and sent Daniels to keep her in check. And Daniels knew just how to make the best of his opportunity.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Bob Pickle]

1881:  You are stimulating my mind and bringing back memories long forgotten.  I don't have it all yet.  I will take your word for it.    

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCB/GCB1863-88.pdf#Page=197

That's the minutes. The initial 15 resolutions or so appear on pp. 193-198, I believe. Later sessions had an additional 25 resolutions or so. The one on women's ordination is the only one that wasn't adopted, from what I could tell.

The resolution is quoted in the minutes when it is introduced. Then when it was approved it is clearly labeled as such, either at the time of introduction, or later.