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[Snoopy]

1) Yes, I support the ordination of women to ministry.  The fundamental issue is NOT ordination, it is ministry.  If we are going to allow women to be pastors and perform almost all of the functions that our male clergy perform, we should ordain them.

2) As to what will likely be your second question:  Yes, I support female clergy.

3) You are correct that EGW did not recieve the laying on of hands.

4) You are incorrect when you say that she repeatedly declined the position if you mean by that the credentials of an ordained minister.  On November 27, 1887 the 26th annual session of the General Conference voted in official session to grant EGW the credentials of an ordained minister.  Those credentials were re-issued upon their expiration.  As you are well aware,  EGW was quite willing to reprove General Conference personnel and GC leadership when she thought they were taking the denomination in awrong direction.  She did not reprove them for this action.  Rather she accepted the credentials and continued to accept them when re-newed.

5) As to your statement that EGW never encouraged the ordination of women to ministry, that is subject to debate and I will not take a position on it.

6)  As you are probably aware because it has been well reported in the REVIEW for several years now: The Seventh-day Adventist denomination accepts the ordination of women in China as most people who are aware of the sistuation there beleive that God has clearly led in that direction.

Now this is where we DO disagree. Under NO circumstances should a woman be allowed to be a pastor or be ordained. None whatsoever.

hhmm...  But it is OK for a homosexual to be allowed to pastor or to be ordained??  hhmm...

[Johann]

After reading all of these powerful testimonies of your convictions I went back to bed. Most of you have probably experienced how such a discussion can paint a strange picture in your dreams. Here is how I saw it:

Since this question of keeping women out of the ministry appears to have such a strong effect on your eternal destiny I saw before me the hand of God writing in the sky with fiery letters just before the end of probation:

Only those who disapprove of women being ordained for the ministry will enter into my kingdom

Signed: Jesus Christ

Then I saw people scrambling for repentance they had not accepted this most important part in eternal salvation - so they'd not miss His Second Coming.

As I was looking for further details in the picture I saw people like Billy Graham proclaiming that he read through the whole Bible and never saw a word preventing the ordination of woman.

Then I saw Ellen White being deceived by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist into accepting an ordination certificate and keeping it for many years.

As I was wondering what would happen to such people my dream displayed a total picture  of the universe where I saw all of seven heavens. In His great mercy and considering all the work Ellen White and Billy Graham had done for Him the Sky Wagon stopped at either the fifth of sixth heaven where Ellen White and Billy Graham and their adherents were let off. They were told they could remain there for a thousand years while a genderless angel would remain with them for that period of time to straighten them out for their blunders.

A dream or a nightmare?

[Johann]

Sitting in the chair by my laptop I felt asleep again. I'll leave it to your imagination what I saw in my dream then.

[Gregory]

Alex:  That is O.K.  We do not have to agree on everything.

Snoopy:  Let me ask your question in this manner: 

hhmm...  But it is OK for an unmarried heterosexual to be allowed to pastor or to be ordained??  hhmm...

If you had asked that question, I would answer in this manner:  Is that unmarried heterosexual celebate?  If so, yes.

[Gregory]

Johann:  I am awestruck by your skill with words.  It is priceless.

[Gregory]

GAJ, you said:

And a typical response for you...the premise that we set standards based on contemporary cultural
context. . . 

If you do not like the natural extention of your thought process. . .

You are intelligent enough to know that I have never held the premise that we should set standards based upon contemporary cultural context.  That has not been my position at any time in the past and it is not my position now.

It is not a natural extension of my thought process.

[Gregory]

 Snoopy asked:

What would a modern day EGW think of the current state of the SDA church?

EGW lived most of her life in the 1800s and died on  July 16, 1915.  What would she think if the Lord had shown her in vision contemporary society today in the United States?

1) In 1915 she had expelrienced railroad trains and automobiles.  Today we fly people to the moon where they walk the surface and return to Earth.

2) She had experienced the telegraph. Today we push a button and we recieve an instant picture and sound from the other side of the Earth.

3) James worked very hard to earn one dollar to suport the work of God on Earth.  Today one dollar will not purchase a loaf of bread.

4) She lived in very simple homes delighted to have indoor plumbing and glass winddows.  Today our homes may have granite counters from South America and pendent linghts from China or Italy.

5) She spoke of women, modest clothing, and the length of a woman's dress.  (Yes, she also spoke of men's clothing.)  Today she could walk the streets of any city and visit the ocean-side beaches of any country.

6) She lived in a time when we knew little of the origin and treatment of disease.  Today we replace hearts, see pictures of the inside of bodies and do micro-surgery inside eyeballs with  surgical instruments that were intorduced into the eye through a 25 guage hole.

7) During the life-time of EGW the electric starter for automobile engines was developed.  Today I push a few buttons and a computer generated voice gives me point to point directions on driving to visit my sons who live over 1,000 miles from where I live.

8) In her time, evangelists travel great distances to preach to small groups of people who had never heard God's message for them.  Today, with the push of a button on a remote control millions can hear and see the evangelist--think Hope TV.

9)  In the lifetime of EGW the growing denomination experienced much discussion of what constituted Biblical truth.  Things msy seem to never change.  These discussions continue today.  Some of the subjects remain the same and some are different.

10)  EGW wrote about the U.S. Civil War.  Today we push a button and 1,000,000 people can die.

Yes, Snoopy, I often wonder what EGW would think of the SDA Church that she co-founded if she could see it as it exists in our society today.  No, I am not advocating culturalo standards. 
 

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

And just what makes you think she did not see our world today?

I firmly believe Ellen G. White saw New York on Sept 11, 2001 and described the same in 9 Testimonies. And I beleive she was given a panoramic view of the world in it's final agony moving forward and gave time pertinent counsel for us to the end of time. And that is what makes her writings so relevant to the very current period.

And Billy Graham has not seen a single text banning women from ordaination but he has also not seen a single text supporting ordaining women. However, there is clear guidance on the qualifications for ordaination.  Perhaps, in your dream, you were given clear guidance on just how we get women to fit into this simple but important social model. If so, your enlightenment would be appreciated.

To make it clear, I have utter contempt for much of what I see ordained these days. There are far too many "ordained" that are selected by all too human hand and and fail the tests of Faith and Biblical principle openly and contemptuously. A former catholic turned adventist refers to these SDA pastors as "time servers and hirelings", a term that seems to fit nicely.

I adhere to a firm belief the Bible and the counsels make it clear that we are all engaged in ministry and have a duty to share our faith in our spheres of influence and we are held accountable for our failure to do so.

Ordaination is clearly conferred upon those with a special "atonement" and they are models for the christian community. That model is clearly and definitively given in Biblical Scripture. To ordain outside these clear guidelines is no ordaination at all and simply never happened. In fact, a false ordaination is heresy and of none affect in the Heavenly Courts.

I therefore conclude that to ordain women is a heresy and of none affect. They clearly will have difficulty being the husband of one wife and we leave the rest to your prayerful consideration.

Personally, I feel we need to look upon the entire ordaination process and evaluate just how many "men" meet the standards so clearly set. And if they do not and are not ordained does that prevent their "ministry"? Nor should it prevent women from "ministry".  In no way should either man nor woman be "ordained" if they are not a model of Christian Family and Deportment!

We are way too quick to confer ordaination as if it is the ultimate "tenure" rather than the acheivement of atonement with the Spirit and a clear model for the Christian church.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[tinka]

It would be interesting to learn what EGW's opinion would be of the church as it operates now.

She was shone it and tears rolled down her cheeks until she barely could write.  So that should tell somebody with common sense our latter time is only corrupt with the ( left wing justifiers) coming in just like she knew it would and only few Adventist would be saved while others from other denominations came in at the last and grasped the truth.

[tinka]

And just what makes you think she did not see our world today?

I firmly believe Ellen G. White saw New York on Sept 11, 2001 and described the same in 9 Testimonies. And I believe she was given a panoramic view of the world in it's final agony moving forward and gave time pertinent counsel for us to the end of time. And that is what makes her writings so relevant to the very current period.

And Billy Graham has not seen a single text banning women from ordination but he has also not seen a single text supporting ordaining women. However, there is clear guidance on the qualifications for ordination.  Perhaps, in your dream, you were given clear guidance on just how we get women to fit into this simple but important social model. If so, your enlightenment would be appreciated.

To make it clear, I have utter contempt for much of what I see ordained these days. There are far too many "ordained" that are selected by all too human hand and and fail the tests of Faith and Biblical principle openly and contemptuously. A former catholic turned Adventist refers to these SDA pastors as "time servers and hirelings", a term that seems to fit nicely.

I adhere to a firm belief the Bible and the counsels make it clear that we are all engaged in ministry and have a duty to share our faith in our spheres of influence and we are held accountable for our failure to do so.

Ordination is clearly conferred upon those with a special "atonement" and they are models for the christian community. That model is clearly and definitively given in Biblical Scripture. To ordain outside these clear guidelines is no ordination at all and simply never happened. In fact, a false ordaination is heresy and of none affect in the Heavenly Courts.

I therefore conclude that to ordain women is a heresy and of none affect. They clearly will have difficulty being the husband of one wife and we leave the rest to your prayerful consideration.

Personally, I feel we need to look upon the entire ordaination process and evaluate just how many "men" meet the standards so clearly set. And if they do not and are not ordained does that prevent their "ministry"? Nor should it prevent women from "ministry".  In no way should either man nor woman be "ordained" if they are not a model of Christian Family and Deportment!

We are way too quick to confer ordination as if it is the ultimate "tenure" rather than the acheivement of atonement with the Spirit and a clear model for the Christian church.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

This is exactly right. Make a study just on the word "ordination". Ordination just meant that in early times when the 3rd angels message was to go out they wanted to make sure the messengers or preachers were "knowing" and giving the right message as it was presented and not an impostor that gave his own theories.Other denominations do this to make sure also that another doctrine is not given by their preachers. That is all that means.

 It had to be the united doctrine given by "Inspiration" to the small group. and absolutely not did EGW feel that her "credentials" should come from man but knew for sure "God Himself" Holy Spirit gave them to her and therefore would be a slap in the face of God to except from man's credentials even tho organization of church decided to do as they pleased. and all women should follow suit as all through her writings she gave explicit details how important a woman"s work was beside the man. I felt God knew best and therefore did my best in that field..as a woman.

 Women that jump up to their own causes (in the preaching world) certainly cannot be "ordained" against the SP council nor for the "aggressive liberated" women that seek men's man made preaching "credentials" for the purpose of a pay check or taking the liberated women's stand of equal in the man's part, and just what would that do for them?? seeking the kingdom that is?? nothing!!! )Now how silly in reality do you want to get?? picture this, a little old "ordained women"  dipping a great big huge man into the baptistery, it definitely has many draw back in reality and pretty funny ) and that is the stance of EGW if you read it at all and do not add between lines of what she actually did and (Gregory if you read this, this day and age makes no change but the change only that comes in man's justifications of riding the fence in so many issues is corruption that will cause many Adventist to lose eternity which she clearly states (as shown with tears running down her cheeks as she wrote knowing the future of Adventist downfall). I have had my opinion long before I saw you on 3abn talks and you posted here your stance on most all issues.  At your age like mine and much more education, should know without following "new age" changes.  So here we are with the liberal teachers into evolution bringing down the schools and the whole other conglomeration of plain old devil intrusions of the SDA that will follow instead of devouring our last message into following truth without prejudice of ones own opinions. So in ones own salvation make sure your English is up to par in the right contexts and words  of SP the same as you would God's Bible and word. Sorry Gailon if I addressed another on my agreeing reply to yours.

It's got to end soon- as all we are now talking about and separated in foundational beginnings- we must know it all has come to pass as shown to EGW.

[Johann]

Johann:  I am awestruck by your skill with words.  It is priceless.

What is the redemptive value of verbosity?

[tinka]

Snoopy asked:

What would a modern day EGW think of the current state of the SDA church?

EGW lived most of her life in the 1800s and died on  July 16, 1915.  What would she think if the Lord had shown her in vision contemporary society today in the United States?

1) In 1915 she had expelrienced railroad trains and automobiles.  Today we fly people to the moon where they walk the surface and return to Earth.

2) She had experienced the telegraph. Today we push a button and we recieve an instant picture and sound from the other side of the Earth.

3) James worked very hard to earn one dollar to suport the work of God on Earth.  Today one dollar will not purchase a loaf of bread.

4) She lived in very simple homes delighted to have indoor plumbing and glass winddows.  Today our homes may have granite counters from South America and pendent linghts from China or Italy.

5) She spoke of women, modest clothing, and the length of a woman's dress.  (Yes, she also spoke of men's clothing.)  Today she could walk the streets of any city and visit the ocean-side beaches of any country.

6) She lived in a time when we knew little of the origin and treatment of disease.  Today we replace hearts, see pictures of the inside of bodies and do micro-surgery inside eyeballs with  surgical instruments that were intorduced into the eye through a 25 guage hole.

7) During the life-time of EGW the electric starter for automobile engines was developed.  Today I push a few buttons and a computer generated voice gives me point to point directions on driving to visit my sons who live over 1,000 miles from where I live.

8) In her time, evangelists travel great distances to preach to small groups of people who had never heard God's message for them.  Today, with the push of a button on a remote control millions can hear and see the evangelist--think Hope TV.

9)  In the lifetime of EGW the growing denomination experienced much discussion of what constituted Biblical truth.  Things msy seem to never change.  These discussions continue today.  Some of the subjects remain the same and some are different.

10)  EGW wrote about the U.S. Civil War.  Today we push a button and 1,000,000 people can die.

Yes, Snoopy, I often wonder what EGW would think of the SDA Church that she co-founded if she could see it as it exists in our society today.  No, I am not advocating culturalo standards. 
 

All of this shows lack of reading every book every context and denying all foundational beginning of denomination and going for world events put into justifications for following change of all new age competitiveness. Her writings like the Bible can be used in any era the same as Bible no matter the progression of science.

 The women of today have lost their calling, destroyed their families, while trying to compete when not necessary and some poor women having to out of necessity.  But the ones that do it out of shear equal to man is the ones that show out obvious and I reject to anything they say or do. They already got an idenity of"domination" and of course that does not make them equal but a character to dominate. Does a man like this in marriage? how about what it does to children? Do same sex couples give the right distinction to adopted children. What a mess this all can branch off too. Just because.....oh,oh, here we go again. lol  The women's power vote because they like the looks of Romney?  Now how smart is that?? Who knows what we got for this upcoming corruption again?   Something sure is wrong someplace when we got this much diversion within our own denomination.

[tinka]

....and the church seems to fall. (quote)

This has to be the era and time for this to happen as all seem to be falling away as separation begins.

What else is it and how can it stop?

[Snoopy]

....and the church seems to fall. (quote)

This has to be the era and time for this to happen as all seem to be falling away as separation begins.

What else is it and how can it stop?

If this is what has to happen before the Second Coming, do we really want it to stop?

[Johann]

The Jesuits are still hard at work convincing the very elect to follow a thousand year old sanctified Roman Catholic tradition in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, as well as sections of other denominations. If the Jesuits cannot gain hold of these churches in other areas they will do their utmost to be sure that also the very elect will fall at the feet of Rome, thinking they are the true messengers of God. At the end all will worship Rome, so lots is at stake.