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[Gregory]

She was given those credentials to speak to that conference.

False.

She was given those credentials at the very end of the conference.  See:  A. L. White, ELLEN G. WHITE, Vol 3, THE LONELYYEARS, 1876 - 1891, R & H Publilshing, 1984, Page 377.

In the years that followed, her credentials were renewed.  IOW, she kept them for years.

[Gregory]

The Committee on Credentials and Licenses made recommendations as
follows:--

For Credentials: G. I. Butler, S. N. Haskell, O. A. Olsen, W. C. White,
R. A. Underwood, U. Smith, R. M. Kilgore, Mrs. E. G. White, B. L. Whitney, D. T. Bourdeau, A. A. John, J. H. Matteson, E. W. Whitney, E. G. Olsen, J. H. Durland, A. C. Bourdeau, L. R. Conradi, S. H. Lane, William Ings, M. C. Israel, D. A.
Robinson, C. L. Boyd, E. W. Farnsworth, H. Shultz, W. D. Curtis, W. H. Saxby,
J. F. Hansen, A. G. Daniells, S. Fulton, T. H. Gibbs, S. H. Kime, L. P. Hodges,
J. C. Laubhan, J. M. Rees, G. C. Tenney, H. P. Holser, Ira J. Hankins, D. E.
Lindsey, O. C. Godsmark, G. G. Rupert, N. Orcutt, Victor Thompson, J. P.
Henderson, J. M. Erickson, M. Enoch, N. Clausen, O. Hill.

For License: C. Eldridge, W. Baird, N. B. England, A. Barry, A. LaRue,
Henry Scott, L. H. Crisler, J. I. Tay, G. E. Langdon, Mrs. Ruie Hill.

Report was adopted.

Bob: Your reference is interesting.  I shall have to spend more time with it, when I have time.  As I read the above, it states that the recommendation to grant credentials to EGW was adopted.

Also, as I understand it, Mrs. Ruie Hill, I assume that the "Mrs." means she was female, was recommended for and granted  a License, rather than credentials as EGW was granted.

[Murcielago]

If you are referring to whether a homosexual can pastor, I believe the Southern Baptist Church would agree with me that it would be ok as long as the homosexual was not engaging in homosexual sex.


Gregory: Come to the southern baptist association I beong too. I will assure you that the pastors would overwelmingly agree with my stand on women clergy.

I'm sorry, I didn't clarify what I was talking about. I wasn't referring to the practice of homosexuality as a pastor, I was referring to the practice of homosexuality in general, which I understand the Southern Baptist Convention disapproves of entirely, as per their understanding of the writings of Paul et al. Which, I understand, is also what they base their disapproval of the ordination of women on.

The point I am approaching in this is that personal or corporate experience, biases, culture, etc can, and usually do, trump the Bible in term of personal belief. E.g., a person or organization can adhere to one thing that Paul says because it agrees with what they want to believe, and they can disagree with something else he is equally clear on because it disagrees with their personal or corporate needs or desires.

[Murcielago]

Also, if God did not create homosexuals, why do animals also engage in homosexual activity?

I'm just just stating that if one cites Paul as the final authority on one matter (e.g. ordination of women), they should be prepared to accept him as the final authority on all matters that he clearly addresses.

[Johann]

....and the church seems to fall. (quote)

This has to be the era and time for this to happen as all seem to be falling away as separation begins.

What else is it and how can it stop?

If this is what has to happen before the Second Coming, do we really want it to stop?

Bring it on -and that is why it is very interesting to watch and read where everybody comes from on their comments.  Reasoning for the "new age" change is really amazing.

It is interesting to see what arguments are used. There is absolutely no connection with this and "new age". We are dealing with the sacred Word of God and reading it with the understanding given us also through the Spirit of Prophecy - warning against the infiltration of Antichrist. This question was dealt with in an article in our own MINISTRY MAGAZINE about 50 or 60 years ago long before there was any "new age" but people were not ready for the warning given then. Tinka, I challenge you to give me one quotation from Ellen G. White which supports your present view on this issue. Are you ready to stand for truth, or do you prefer bowing your knees before BAAL?

[Johann]

It really hurts me to see to what length you will go to seek support for your  stand in support of Rome. But we do have Freedom of Religion.

[Murcielago]

Johann,

In what specific ways are Adventists today following the teachings of Augustine?

By following his teachings on the role of women. He seemed to tie this all together, so if Rome gains your little finger they will try to catch the whole hand as well. The next step could be infant baptism. Why not just sprinkle a few drops of holy water as you have your child dedication? Not too many at first, it should not create a suspicion right at the beginning.

Johann, in what way are Adventists today following the teachings of Augustine on the role of women? I do not recall reading any Adventists who quote Augustine on this topic. They may cite Ellen White, Paul, Moses, etc., but not Augustine.

Self-proclaimed anti-trinitarians make the same sort of claim regarding Adventists who believe in the Trinity, that those Adventists got the Trinity doctrine from Rome. But while I hear such Adventists quote Desire of Ages, I do not hear them basing their beliefs on Roman Catholic authors.

So we need more than just the claim that it comes from Rome. We need a clear-cut paper trail, showing how Adventists have gotten their understanding of the role of women from Augustine rather than from Paul.

One doesn't have to cite/quote Augustine or any other Roman Catholic leaders and authors in order to follow their lead.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Johann,

Cite a single passage from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy that supports ordaining women. It simply does not exist. And the "credentials" Mr Gregory repeatedly relies upon is nothing more than can be conferred to this date and does not constitute "Ordination".
 
The premise that the Paulean Standard for Ordination should be abandoned is simply heresy!!! One who believes we should change this in light of the Biblical Standard and the Principled Model it so clearly establishes is setting up the church for further Apostacy as I do not believe the church has properly established Ordination Practices based upon the Biblical Standard but has simply used the Laying on of Hands to confer tenure to "qualified" and "loyal" pastors, regardless of the biblical qualifications of the pastor.

I can find no basis for believing that following the Paulean Standard in any way violates protestantism and leads to Romanism. In fact, the current Ordination is heirarchal but not because it excludes women, but rather because it is of man and not a God Given Gift conferred for holiness but rather human loyalty.

Gailon Arthur joy
AUReporter

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

And now that the Southeastern California Conference has moved to a single Gender Neutral Ordination, should we move to disband that conference from the fellowship of churches?

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Johann]

Johann,

In what specific ways are Adventists today following the teachings of Augustine?

By following his teachings on the role of women. He seemed to tie this all together, so if Rome gains your little finger they will try to catch the whole hand as well. The next step could be infant baptism. Why not just sprinkle a few drops of holy water as you have your child dedication? Not too many at first, it should not create a suspicion right at the beginning.

Johann, in what way are Adventists today following the teachings of Augustine on the role of women? I do not recall reading any Adventists who quote Augustine on this topic. They may cite Ellen White, Paul, Moses, etc., but not Augustine.

Self-proclaimed anti-trinitarians make the same sort of claim regarding Adventists who believe in the Trinity, that those Adventists got the Trinity doctrine from Rome. But while I hear such Adventists quote Desire of Ages, I do not hear them basing their beliefs on Roman Catholic authors.

So we need more than just the claim that it comes from Rome. We need a clear-cut paper trail, showing how Adventists have gotten their understanding of the role of women from Augustine rather than from Paul.

Bob I challenge you to make an hones study of this. You would also see that an Adventist holding your view would be an utter fool if he'd quote Augustine himself. He just keeps misquoting Paul, Ellen White - and perhaps other authorities attempting to conceal that he is really worshiping Rome.

[Johann]

There could be lots of other reasons for "condemning" certain actions within our Church. What i deplore is that we make fools out of ourselves when condemning them for doing what is right, according to he Word of God and Ellen White ´and thereby seeking a closer connection with the church of Rome.

Now I have to sleep, but I¨ll have plenty to say later. Be prepared.

[Snoopy]

....and the church seems to fall. (quote)

This has to be the era and time for this to happen as all seem to be falling away as separation begins.

What else is it and how can it stop?

If this is what has to happen before the Second Coming, do we really want it to stop?

Bring it on -and that is why it is very interesting to watch and read where everybody comes from on their comments.  Reasoning for the "new age" change is really amazing.

Amen, sister tinka!!  I agree!  Bring it on - let's get this over with!

[Murcielago]

My opinion is that soon the carefully laid plans, the well studied theologies, the thoughts and philosophies that run society will be urine flushing down the toilet, dragging those who still cling to its nasty draw with it. A new time is breaking out of the box. We will learn it as we go, or it will destroy us. Enjoy a moment of recognition, but endure a lifetime of hell for it. People are people and that should never be forgotten.

[christian]

What is the problem with ordaining women? At lease they will have something to do because for definite they are not going back into the kitchen or into doing the child rearing thing again. Most women I know now work eight hours a day just like the men do. And a lot of the women I know are just as power hungry as the men are, they want the position and power that is held as an elder and leader of the church. I find it most refreshing around that time of the month when they become embittered with the men and speak the truth boldly from the pulpit. So I think it is all a thing of money ordination gives you more money. As conference presidentest she will be more effective and besides we need another Margaret Thatcher in charge. That text in the bible about the women being quiet needs to be deleted from the scriptures. Today the church is at least 75% women and most of the women are more fervent than the men and don't seem to struggle as much as the men with sexual sins. So someone please tell me the dangers of women being at the head, what harm will it cause?

[Gregory]

Gregory: Come to the southern baptist association I beong too. I will assure you that the pastors would overwelmingly agree with my stand on women clergy.

Alex, I do not challenge you at all.  You are accurately stating the position of the national convention.  That 2000 revision was taken because a substantial number of Southern Baptist delagates agreed with it.

My point simplly added to your point.  That point is that Southern Baptist local congregations have a lot of indep[endence.  That independence allows them to ordain females, which is not prohibited and to install females as clergy.