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Author Topic: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason  (Read 281788 times)

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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #510 on: May 08, 2012, 11:52:14 PM »

Who was the first preacher of the resurrection? We all know it was Mary. Mary, this woman whose integrity had been deprived by leaders and elders among God's chosen people. Mary was the female whom Jesus Christ had restored to womanhood and therefore God used her as the first preacher of  the real Christian message.

How many male church leaders are depraving the Marys of today of what they should be giving them?


As far as your derogatory comments based on half a sentence is Damsteegt's conversion story go, how is that not evil surmising?

In which way did I make it any worse than what he told himself?

Did he get that inclination while attended the Catholic chapel when he was in the military and dancing was part of the service? Young females do yield a magic power on the thinking of young men.

After graduating as an aeronautical engineer, he was drafted into the Dutch Air Force. Essentially a pacifist by nature, he was greatly repulsed by the movies of killing he was forced to watch--how to best inflict a mortal wound, etc. As part of the training, he was obliged to attend meetings organized by either the Protestant or Catholic chaplains. Catholics usually sponsored a dance with girls; Protestants, group discussions. He attended both but was more attracted to the discussion groups.

There is nothing in the above quote from Damsteegt's personal testimony about his conversion that calls into question his character. Your comment does, in my opinion.

How do you create an opinion, Bob? Just because this questions your desperate defense of Roman Catholicism within the Seventh-day Adventist Church you blame me for questioning the character of the person who seems to be one of your sources? I question personal opinions which does not mean questioning the character of a person even though his opinions might be weird. To me this kind of reasoning seems to be a desperate way of grabbing some withered straws to prevent certain ideas from plunging into the abyss below.
Quote
And Mary was never ordained,

I'd like to see you document this.

I agree that my statement is an argument from silence. On the other hand, I'd like to see you document that Mary was ordained.

You made a claim, Bob, so I requested a documentation. I have not made the claim she was ordained, so what am I to document? Silence does not document she was ordained nor that she wasn't. Neither does an opinion.

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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #511 on: May 09, 2012, 12:12:50 AM »

There are also strong indications the Celts still believed the words of the Apostle that there is no distinction between male and female and made this real in their Christianity, permitting women to preach.

At what point does it become deceptive to cite Gal. 3 in support of women's ordination while ignoring the other statements about the role of women made by the same author in the NT?

At least one Ph. D. scholar, who is a frequent speaker at the most conservative gatherings of Adventist in Northern Europe,  believes they ordained women for the ministry until the Roman Catholics prevented this along with introducing Sunday worship.

More on this later.

I am interested in the identity of the PhD scholar you refer to.

"For the pagan Celt, the essence of the universe and all its creativity was female and they left permanent traces of a culture in which women were the spiritual and moral pivot" (http://www.pabay.org/skyeviews.html).

It will be interesting to see if any traces of what you suggest can be solidly linked to NT Christianity, rather than to an absorption of pagan Celtic culture.

I agree with you that this is interesting. Does the source you quote also link their Sabbath observance with pagan culture?

I'll give you a few more clues on the identity of the scholar: Former Bible teacher and college/academy principal. Regarded by many conservatives as a great Bible scholar.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #512 on: May 09, 2012, 04:59:33 AM »

On what basis are "commissioned ministers" authorized to baptize if it is not by virtue of being a local elder? An unordained minister can only baptize if they are elected and currently serving as a local church elder. I don't see how a commissioned minister can be any different, especially since they can only baptize within their own district.
Does the Bible make a case for the geo-political aspect of baptism, and does it specify election as a prerequisite to unordained ministers baptizing, or are these points that were invented later and accepted as tradition?

Good question.

"Both Paul and Barnabas had been laboring as ministers of Christ, and God had abundantly blessed their efforts; but neither of them had previously been formally ordained to the gospel ministry by prayer and the laying on of hands. They were now authorized by the church, not only to teach the truth, but to baptize, and to organize churches, being invested with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42).

There isn't a whole lot in the Bible to go on.

"This form was a significant one to the Jews. When a Jewish father blessed his children, he laid his hands reverently upon their heads. When an animal was devoted to sacrifice, the hand of the one invested with priestly authority was laid upon the head of the victim. Therefore, when the ministers of Antioch laid their hands upon the apostles, they, by that action, asked God to bestow his blessing upon them, in their devotion to the specific work which God had chosen them to do" (LP 44).

Here is something that may be helpful:

Acts 6:3  Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

Thus the 7 deacons were elected by the congregation at Jerusalem. They weren't simply placed in charge by the 12 apostles. Thus, local elder(s) should also be elected.

Can the elder who served last year still function as an elder this year, even though not elected this year? That wouldn't make sense, would it?

Unordained ministers are supposed to be on trial. They have to prove themselves. Thus there has to be a difference between what they can do and what an ordained minister can do. Paul and Barnabas also engaged for a time in ministry before they were ordained. The question remains as to what that difference should be. I think the old way is best, regardless of tax consequences.

Are there any biblical reasons why a local elder should or should not be able to baptize? I think that may be what the question boils down to.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #513 on: May 09, 2012, 05:23:17 AM »

How do you create an opinion, Bob? Just because this questions your desperate defense of Roman Catholicism within the Seventh-day Adventist Church you blame me for questioning the character of the person who seems to be one of your sources? I question personal opinions which does not mean questioning the character of a person even though his opinions might be weird.

Did I not cite Damsteegt regarding Adventism historically not having settled pastors? Did I not say that I arrived at the conclusion that that was how it was supposed to be, and how it was, before I ever read Damsteegt's essay on it?

Yes, that is what I wrote: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index.php/topic,2300.msg36089.html#msg36089. Why then are you claiming that he "seems to be one of your sources"?

If you want to quibble about my timeline, I plainly stated that I had read those 1927 and 1940 books by 1993, and Damsteegt's essay was not published until 2005!

And you dare call Damsteegt's SoP-based "opinion" on the role of tithe-paid ministers "weird"?

"As a general rule, the conference laborers should go out from the churches into new fields, using their God-given ability to a purpose in seeking and saving the lost.--Letter 136, 1902" (Ev 382).

My citation of Damsteegt that resulted in your uncalled for comment about dancing girls concerned the role of tithe-paid ministers, not women's ordination. And thus the opinion your words suggest as weird concerns the role of tithe-paid ministers, which "opinion" is clearly laid out in the SoP. And thus your words that clear counsel in the SoP is weird.

Or, did you change the subject in midstream without clearly telling us, from Damsteegt's essay on the role of tithe-paid ministers to his thoughts on women's ordination, even though I did not cite Damsteegt's essay for that purpose, and his essay is not about that topic?
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #514 on: May 09, 2012, 10:34:27 AM »

How do you create an opinion, Bob? Just because this questions your desperate defense of Roman Catholicism within the Seventh-day Adventist Church you blame me for questioning the character of the person who seems to be one of your sources? I question personal opinions which does not mean questioning the character of a person even though his opinions might be weird.


Did I not cite Damsteegt regarding Adventism historically not having settled pastors? Did I not say that I arrived at the conclusion that that was how it was supposed to be, and how it was, before I ever read Damsteegt's essay on it?

Yes, that is what I wrote: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index.php/topic,2300.msg36089.html#msg36089. Why then are you claiming that he "seems to be one of your sources"?

If you want to quibble about my timeline, I plainly stated that I had read those 1927 and 1940 books by 1993, and Damsteegt's essay was not published until 2005!

And you dare call Damsteegt's SoP-based "opinion" on the role of tithe-paid ministers "weird"?

"As a general rule, the conference laborers should go out from the churches into new fields, using their God-given ability to a purpose in seeking and saving the lost.--Letter 136, 1902" (Ev 382).

My citation of Damsteegt that resulted in your uncalled for comment about dancing girls concerned the role of tithe-paid ministers, not women's ordination. And thus the opinion your words suggest as weird concerns the role of tithe-paid ministers, which "opinion" is clearly laid out in the SoP. And thus your words that clear counsel in the SoP is weird.

Or, did you change the subject in midstream without clearly telling us, from Damsteegt's essay on the role of tithe-paid ministers to his thoughts on women's ordination, even though I did not cite Damsteegt's essay for that purpose, and his essay is not about that topic?

Bob, I do not understand why you can say I changed the subject since I have never objected to your nor Damsteegt's essay on the role of tithe-paid ministries. It is a lot easier to follow you if you manage to stay with the subject.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #515 on: May 09, 2012, 05:07:03 PM »

The Official NAD Report

5-2-12 North American Division Affirms Women Clergy

.
Report of the first organized conference for women clergy
 
 
Darius Jankiewicz, associate professor of historical theology at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary on the campus of Andrews University shared his recent study of scripture where he concluded that ordination was not part of the New Testament Church. Furthermore, his historical study revealed that ordination began in the pagan world and developed over the centuries into a theology that puts the priests in a position of authority over the laity and limits the dispensation of God’s grace to the priesthood. 
 

Today I was able to spend some time at the University National Library which contains quite a bit material on Celtic Christianity. Research, in particular by Einar Palsson, reveals that Celtic Christians seem to have arrived in a fairly large number from the Hebrides to Iceland where they lived from 870 to 1000 AD together with the Pagan Norwegian Vikings. He discovered that these Christian Celts did not accept the Pope, but had their own leader (Conference President)

Roman Catholicism united the Celtic Christians and the Norwegian pagans 1000 AD, but even then the Christian Church accepted some of the Celtic traditions and they did not fully accept the pope, as far as I understand.
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Murcielago

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #516 on: May 09, 2012, 09:39:37 PM »

Nevertheless, Johann, Catholicism integrated the Judaic, Roman, Greek, and generally human practice of raising cultural tradition to the level of Divine authority into Christendom, in perpetuam. Today the practice and acceptance of cultural tradition as holding the weight of Biblical authority is as strong in almost every hold of Christian belief as it was 800 years ago in Rome. The wheel of time may turn, but the nature of human need, drive, and desire does not. It remains constant.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #517 on: May 10, 2012, 02:41:38 AM »

Nevertheless, Johann, Catholicism integrated the Judaic, Roman, Greek, and generally human practice of raising cultural tradition to the level of Divine authority into Christendom, in perpetuam. Today the practice and acceptance of cultural tradition as holding the weight of Biblical authority is as strong in almost every hold of Christian belief as it was 800 years ago in Rome. The wheel of time may turn, but the nature of human need, drive, and desire does not. It remains constant.

And people find a way of fulfilling their needs. A family with more desires than needs had a hard time living within their budget with their 5 children. So towards the end of the month they'd gather the whole herd just before supper-time each evening and go visit a hospitable family. That decision was made by the father, the head of the household, because he had been taught that women should not make the important decisions in the family.

I got this story from a 50 year old woman who was a small girl in the hospitable family which had 6 children.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 02:45:09 AM by Johann »
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #518 on: May 10, 2012, 06:20:27 AM »

Bob, I do not understand why you can say I changed the subject since I have never objected to your nor Damsteegt's essay on the role of tithe-paid ministries. It is a lot easier to follow you if you manage to stay with the subject.

I did not change the subject, Johann. Here is the post after which you started talking about dancing girls.

Bob:

You sure have a way of mixing facts and defining them to defend your own bias.

...

Bob, I am amazed how efficient you are at splitting the Word of God in an attempt to let it fit your bias. When I read that quote of Ellen White I find it defining the ministry I was ordained to perform as well as the ministry our female pastors are called to perform. Your bias does not permit that definition, so I wonder . . .

What I wrote about the role of tithe-paid ministers not generally supposed to be pastoring local churches is pretty basic stuff. See Ev 382 as but one example. For the history about it all, see Damsteegt's article on it at http://www.andrews.edu/~damsteeg/Herewestand_sec_6.pdf.

But long before I read Damsteegt, I read two books on churches by non-Adventists, I think the publication dates being 1927 and 1940. I read the 2 and 10 pages those two books had on Adventists by the end of 1993, I believe. Both books said that Adventist churches didn't have pastors. Elders handled the pastoral work while the tithe-paid ministers, generally, were out in new fields raising up new churches.

And that's what we ought to go back to, if we want to see the work finished. Ethnicities that are more or less following that model are growing faster than we Caucasians who refuse to obey the counsel God has given us on this point.

Women's ordination advocates sometimes try to cite the way things used to be in Adventism, but I have yet to see where they pointed out that tithe-paid ministers generally did not pastor local churches. If they really want to go back to the way things used to be, they will be pushing for all ministers, men and women, generally to engage in evangelism in new fields, leaving the local elders to carry on the church services.

But nowhere have I ever heard that that is what they are doing, and thus they don't really want to go back to the way things used to be.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #519 on: May 10, 2012, 02:43:46 PM »

Manfred Lemke came originally from Switzerland and he was a university lecturer in electronic communication for teachers when he became a Seventh-day Adventist. A few years later he intended to audit some Bible classes at Newbold College to learn more about the teachings of our church, but he was soon encouraged to satisfy the requirements for a Masters degree in theology. Today he is a pastor and director of communications in the Iceland Conference. He sent me this recent Sabbath sermon and gave me permission to abbreviate it and translate it into English.

Clearing unexploded bombs in Scripture
1 Tim 2:8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
Each year more than 5000 unexploded bombs are found in Germany. Most of them are uncovered in connection with new constructions. They are underneath schools, hospitals, by highways or in the open countryside. It is estimated that 100,000 bombs are still in the ground waiting to be uncovered.
In recent years teams of specialists take care of these bombs, but they do not always succeed. There are increased discoveries in metropolitan areas. Complications increase with age as the powder becomes unpredictable.
Germany is not the only explosive area in the world; there are many infected areas which cannot be entered without risking life or limbs. The Bible was written before such bombs were invented, and yet some of its contents is as explosive as the unexploded bombs in Berlin.
One of these areas deals with men and women. Here is the verse again in context:
1 Timothy 2:8-15 8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
This text has often been used to explain why women are neither to be ministers nor bishops. How are we to understand this text? Haven‘t we already discovered its final meaning ?
Considering how often I see a new light when I read a Bible text again, this could also apply to First Timothy. The letters to Timothy and Titus are usually called the Pastoral Epistles. They are all addressed to individuals rather than churches. Timothy was then working in Ephesus.  His father was Greek but his mother a Jew. Timothy was a timid person and weak, and yet a good teacher and minister.
In his letter Paul is helping his friend and coworker in his difficult task of being a leader. This is a private letter between two men of God written more than 1900 years ago. Timothy was the leader of a small church in a town and country where other gods were worshipped. Ephesus was known for its Artemis temple. And we will meet Artemis later in again.
Now I want to tell you of something quite different. Last time I attended a media session in our church I was seated at a table with an Egyptian, an Israeli, and a Syrian. These were all Adventists and one is a former fellow student at Newbold College. It was a supper I will never forget. All three neighbors were defaming each other constantly. With great gestures they would call each other „infidels“and much more with their eyes wide open and sweat pouring from their brows.
I sat there like a convict. I tried to participate with smiles and a few unsuccessful remarks, but it really seemed like a storm was passing by with nothing I could do. I left the table confused, yet my friend Salom seemed to sense it and followed me. He convinced me this was their natural way of conversation. They are the best of friends and this way of conversing is just a sign of their friendship.
To me this was a cultural chock. How are Paul, Timothy, and all of the other men  talking to each other? Could it be that in his conversation with a personal  friend about a strange behavior, he might express himself in a way that is quite different from what we know and are used to?
All of this is but some preliminary remarks. Now let’s get to the task at hand. Verse 8 is easy:  8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
The word translated “disputing” is an interesting word. Dialogismos refers here to disputing and questioning if the other person is telling the truth. Disputing and anger was what I thought I experienced at the supper table. Here it was between friends. How would it be among enemies?

To me it appears like Paul is here asking men to leave off their male chauvinism, machismo, and quarrels and rather pray in humility.

Then Paul talks about women: He is continuing the same subject. He wants women to correct their old habits and rather have their minds set on what is important: 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
Rather than having their minds set on outer appearance [margaritas] Paul speaks of good deeds. Back in those days there was no social security or insurance, so the wealthy people were responsible for those who were facing financial worries. Time and means provided to help the poor was called “good deeds”.

Paul is here reminding both men and women not to remain in their usual state of mind. Males should not amuse themselves with argumentation nor should females mess around with their ornaments. They should rather consider what is important for God.
Now we have the next sentence: 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

Notice it says a woman should learn, but she should not just learn to achieve power and control. Now let us consider Artemis again. She was a female who ruled over all and everyone among the pagans in Ephesus. This was what should not take place among the Christian women. They were to learn and get an education in humility.
I have considered every word in the Greek text. This gives me the understanding that Paul states the women are to be educated undisturbed and in submission to the Lord.
Now we reach verse 12: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Some find in this text a culmination in humiliation of women. Females are not even permitted to use nice clothing. They are nothing but the daughters of Eve with whom all the misfortunes of the world started. They’d rather be quiet and be satisfied with having children. Is this the purpose of this letter?
Could it be that God intended one half of humanity to only serve this purpose? That could never be true. Who were the first witnesses of the Resurrection? Women – they were the first „apostolos“.
What does Paul state in Romans 16:
Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.
Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Here we have deacons and apostles. And there is even more explosive powder in 1 Corinthians where we just quote half a sentence:
1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman who prays or prophesies. . .
So, what is the woman to do? Keep quiet? Then we have
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Where is the distinction? Is the woman second rate under the male? One of the strongest examples in found in Luke 10.
Martha was busy in the kitchen where people would say she was doing the work of a woman. She was sullen towards Mary. Why?
Luke 10:39  She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said
Along with the other disciples Mary from Bethany is sitting at the feet of the Master teacher. She is learning what she will be teaching others later. Her sister Martha was angry because Mary was breaking all the rules which governed what she was supposed to do as a woman. Rather than doing her duties in the kitchen she was performing the duties of an apostle.
What did Jesus say about this? Did he tell Mary to follow the rules in agreement which all the proper authorities? 41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “You are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”
Now back to verse 12: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
What is Paul dealing with? Considering the situation in Ephesus, where all the pagan priests were women, I‘d suggest the following translation:
„I do not think women should now display a new authority over men which is similar to the way men have been ruling over women.“ Paul wants to make sure Christians do not follow the pagans. Christianity was to be entirely different than the worship of Artemis. Just like Jesus teaches in Luke 10 women should have the opportunity to learn what they need, without displaying a superiority in the spirit of the Artemis worshipers. The purpose is much rather that both men and women have the possibilities to develop their own Spiritual gifts to learn and teach.
The final question is why Paul refers to Adam and Eve here? Who was it that had received a full explanation the purpose of the trees in the garden of Eden? That was Adam. Therefore Adam sinned fully knowing what he was doing. Eve was not as well informed. Paul is emphasizing the importance of women being better informed. He is using this as an example of the results of ignorance.
Why does Paul mention births? It is clear that he does not regard them to be a punishment. Birth is probably the most difficult, the most painful and most dangerous moment in the life of a woman. But it is not to replace a punishment. A new child is born adding to the creation of God in this world.
In the beginning I mentioned bombs that have not exploded. They are dangerous and unpredictable. There is still much in the Bible which is difficult to understand, but one thing is certain: God will never increase injustice among those who believe in Him.
Let‘s join hands and disconnect those bombs that prevent us from understanding the justice of God as revealed in His Word.
Amen
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 02:51:15 PM by Johann »
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #520 on: May 10, 2012, 08:21:11 PM »

Paul write, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Why?

"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Yet the sermon said that Paul was only saying that women should be better informed. What indication do we have in the text that that is how we should interpret it?

Quote
What is Paul dealing with? Considering the situation in Ephesus, where all the pagan priests were women, I‘d suggest the following translation:

I just Googled for "ephesus artemis priests", and a number of websites state that there were both male and female priests in Ephesus involved in the worship of Artemis.
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Johann

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #521 on: May 11, 2012, 08:47:46 AM »

Paul write, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Why?

"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Yet the sermon said that Paul was only saying that women should be better informed. What indication do we have in the text that that is how we should interpret it?

Quote
What is Paul dealing with? Considering the situation in Ephesus, where all the pagan priests were women, I‘d suggest the following translation:

I just Googled for "ephesus artemis priests", and a number of websites state that there were both male and female priests in Ephesus involved in the worship of Artemis.

Thank you for pointing out these things Bob. Thereby we counter some of the problems that arise. The native language of Manfred is Switz German (somewhat different from regular German) and he comes from a country which has four different official languages. Therefore Switzerland is a Tower of Babel, or a melting pot of languages in Europe. But now Manfred has lived for many years in Iceland and speaks this language fluently.

Then I, whose mother tongue is Danish, translated his sermon from Icelandic to English. Your note, Bob, shows how difficult it can be to translate a text by just using a dictionary type of translation like many people are satisfied with.

If I had had your note I should have taken history and many other things into consideration. A better translation would therefore be: "Considering the situation in Ephesus, in particular with all the female pagan priests there, I'd suggest the following translation: . . ."

Again, Bob, thank you again for pointing out to all of us how important it is to take the culture, history, and local situation into consideration when we translate a text about something that has happened in the past and far away from us. Now we all see how valuable that is.

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Bob Pickle

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #522 on: May 11, 2012, 07:41:45 PM »

Johann,

One challenge is identifying what the history and culture really were.

One thing that illustrated this for me was when a college professor explained away Deut. 22:5 stating that cross-dressing was part of pagan worship back then. The I read in Encyclopedia Britannica that an ancient people prohibited an immoral practice except with horses, since that immorality was part of the horse sacrifice. The professor's logic would conclude that that immorality is fine today since it is no longer associated with pagan worship.

This is a very real problem, since advocates of homosexual behavior claim that the reason the Bible forbids such is because it was part of pagan worship back then, but since it isn't today, it's fine today.

Thus I think the only safe course when considering divine commands or counsel in Scripture is to use what the Bible itself says about the history and culture of those times, not what some non-biblical source asserts about it.

Therefore, since the Bible does not say that Paul told the women to keep silent because of all the female pagan priests, I think we should be hesitant to go down that road.
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Gregory

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #523 on: May 12, 2012, 08:45:41 AM »

As reported by ADventist Today, in reference to the recent action of the Pacific Union Conference related to female ordination:

Quote
“You may not like the idea of ordaining women,” stated another retired denominational leader, “but you cannot honestly adhere to the principles that have always guided the Seventh-day Adventist Church and not allow a union conference to do this.” This will be a test case, he noted, of the principles that Ellen White presented to the 1901 GC Session when the concept of union conferences was first introduced.

To call this "rebelion" is not necesarly evident.

 
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tinka

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Re: Are we ignoring the Women's Ordination Issue for a Reason
« Reply #524 on: May 12, 2012, 10:07:31 AM »

lol while women are looking for credentials (oil) It will be of no worth as there was no oil to be found or (credentials that promises eternity).  they really need to learn to be women first and know just what being a women means. Some do not have a clue. A family thrives around a goodly women.
 
But what do they do?? They want to go to war, they want outside the home and leave their families. They want competition, They want men's wear, They want men's strength and finally they want "women" wives.and even worse they want to flaunt their desires in the pulpit with successful "credentials" while they show they can degrade men's virtues and boast in it that they are strong enough to protect the president of the United State lol I about fell off my chair laughing on that bit of news casting from the left.

SHOW ME ONE OF THESE WOMEN STATED ABOVE  WHO HAVE A HUSBAND,  AND I CAN TELL YOU HE IS A MAN WITH LOST VIRTUES IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. WHAT REAL WOMAN WOULD WANT THEM !!
 
My self, a man is extraordinary wonderful how God made him to be a strong caretaker of his family and a "lover of woman" so women can be happy in what they like being a women for.  You will not see me give any attention to a woman that wants "credentials to do her work for God", although I respect women that have credentials to "help people" in general in what fields (doctors, teachers, lawyers, or even a head of a country if placed in that position)  they have been educated in or placed according to the laws of the land.
I liked Diana of England as her care for title meant nothing in the end but her work and sons did follow after her, hopefully so far it appears as she loved the people and suffered much. (from the witch Camille.) but who knows all as it appears.

  EGW pointed that out for different men in need of goodly women for help in their work with the passing of first wives in that period of spreading 3 angels messages.  Of course she spoke of just a small group that had the whole burden of the world to get this new message across to a dying world.  They all sacrificed much for this message to restore the finished church that belongs to God.

Those looking for every justification against SP will Satan show them in between lines to insert their agendas for confusion and diversion of the truth as presented in simple terms.  Just think about it for a moment on why EGW insisted over and over she was just a messenger and doing as she was shown and relating with writing and speech!

But it was the people, the church , the organization and to this day do we believe and state she was a Prophetess. Even the article that Bob put the link on here to read is the first I knew of this book. I am so glad to have read it as it shows without doubt the progression of "Omega". But even the writer claimed EGW as Prophetess. Which I truly believe also that is right, but in all her Intelligence and carefullness and vanity "rules for herself" she knew what was coming in this late day and now here it is. She never ever proclaimed to be ordained from what ever the church gave or tried to instill.  Her claim is that she was "ordained"  or trusted from God for her to give "inspired message". Its clear as a bell her intentions and not this flapping gappy mess of contortions accepting that she or anyone was a "woman ordained preacher".  Ordaining simply means laying on of hands of someone sanctified in the truth and promises to give the truth and nothing but the truth as a great responsibility for a doctrine or Word of God of the Bible  to the will of God and his last day message. 

So why in the world would EGW want or even need "earthly credentials to do what God requested?? This is a most common sense question that evidently ignorance or self agenda against SP cannot fathom. She claimed this herself....Her ordaining came from God.  Her vanity would not except what the church or man did to top what already was given to her by highest authority.

corrections for added thoughts
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