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[Johann]

Were you there? I was, and I have earlier given my impression of the climate there. There are times when our  elected leaders know more of the climate under which a vote was taken than what appears in the legal documents.

Yet we aren't talking about merely a voted action. We are talking about a previously prepared recommendation that was passed 1,173 to 377, which recommendation states matters pretty much as I described.

Whose personal opinion? Did you miss the point in the report where an officer of the conservative Michigan Conference confessed this had not been his personal opinion but the result of a thorough investigation of the Word of God? He admitted having laid his personal opinion aside to discover the will of God.

Then if it is really what the Bible mandates and not simply his personal opinion of what the Bible says, he can simply quote the Bible verse where it says, "Thou shalt ordain women," and the matter is forever settled.

But if he can't come up with a clear, inspired mandate, then he ought to set aside his personal opinion or preference, and submit to the GC Session votes of 1990 and 1995. Otherwise, he is following in the footsteps of the Judaizers who caused Paul so many problems after Acts 15.

You attack a single person for stating what a host of leaders and Bible scholars have concluded on the basis of their Bible Study without your biased application. I'm certain they have not committed themselves to following the ROMAN interpretation of Scripture.

[Snoopy]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

Johann, please explain to all of us how your support of rebellion against properly constituted church authority is in harmony with 9T 261, which was written by Ellen White.

Please explain how the actions of a few elected leaders take precedence over the actions of an entire GC Session which is composed of far more elected leaders and delegates.

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

Bob, I am interested to hear your response to Murcielago's questions...

[Johann]

. . that the church no longer allows women to pastor . . .

1)  The SDA Church has formally approved females serving as pastors.  lWe have many such and this has been done for some years.

2) Under General Conference policy, the above women are Commissioned, not Ordained.  Their ministerial privliges are almost  (not quite) the same as are granted to males who are ordained.

3) The SDA Church formally endorses women for Federal Chaplalincies.  We have SDA females serving as military chaplains.

4) The SDA Chruch recognizes females in China as ordained SDA Clergy.

1) The report states there are 107 of them in the United States alone. The report from the recent meeting also stated that there is no longer any exegetical question that needs to be answered in connection with female ministers.

2)  From what I have seen is that the commissioned ordination given now to women in ministry by their local conference - at least in some places - authorizes them to baptize. The way it works in some places is that the commission is only valid locally and not universally like the regular ordination.

4) The Review informed us recently that President Wilson visited our churches in China. I did not see anything about him disapproving the ordained female pastors there. Should he step aside because he failed to do that? I see this report as his approval of the status quo. What else?

[Johann]

In case some have misunderstood:

I am fully supporting the actions of duly elected leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church while refusing to support those who are finding fault with our leaders. Thereby I am in accord with warnings given by Ellen White in this matter.

Johann, please explain to all of us how your support of rebellion against properly constituted church authority is in harmony with 9T 261, which was written by Ellen White.

Please explain how the actions of a few elected leaders take precedence over the actions of an entire GC Session which is composed of far more elected leaders and delegates.

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

Bob, I am interested to hear your response to Murcielago's questions...

"Second"

[Johann]

Kaieteur News
Diamond taxi driver’s bound body dumped in Enmore...
GTT

  A new day for Adventist women
April 2, 2010 | By KNews | Filed Under News

- Third regional female becomes commissioned Pastor

Laurel Thatcher Ulrich once said, “Well behaved women rarely make history.” How accurate she was is debatable; what is fact is that Margaret Ramsarran has etched an indelible mark in the history of the Seventh-day Adventist church in Guyana.
She is the first Commissioned Pastor to the Gospel Ministry of the local church.
The bestowal of Ecclesiastical authority on Pastor Ramsarran was witnessed by a gathering of members and clergy, recently, at the Olivet Seventh-day Adventist Church, D’Urban Backlands.
The church does not approve the ordination of women to the world wide ministry as is the case with men; however, women’s functioning in leadership roles is not new to the Adventist Church.
According to President of the Guyana Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, Dr. Hilton Garnett, “…we have been ordaining female Elders for years. Our ladies have been making significant contribution to leadership.”
However, the occasion does mark a new era for local Adventist women. Commissioning is the organisation’s highest affirmation of a woman’s call to ministry, a field that is dominated by men even in the world church.
To the hundreds of ordained ministers in the Caribbean Adventist church, of which Guyana is a part, there are only three commissioned women. The other two were commissioned in Antigua.
As noted by a prominent Women’s Ministry leader of the church, Beverly Braithwaite-Chan, “What is victory for one, is victory for all.”
She described the moment as exciting and noted that “to keep women out [of leadership] is to leave more than half of the [church] population silent. They have a meaningful role to play.”
The ceremony attracted leaders from the Caribbean Union of Seventh-day Adventist Churches headquartered in Trinidad.
The union comprises churches in the English- speaking Caribbean from the U.S. Virgin Islands in the North to Guyana and Suriname in the South.
President of the Caribbean Union Conference, Dr. Eugene Daniel; and President of the Suriname Mission, Pastor Linden Gudge, were on hand to officiate in the ceremony.
Dr. Daniel expressed his pleasure at being present at the history-making event. He noted that “the call to ministry is not an ordinary call; it is a call from God.”
Pastor Margaret Ramsarran has been a member of the Adventist church for over 40 years and has served in almost every department.
Speaking about her achievement, Pastor Ramsarran admitted to feeling honoured and privileged; however, she also recognised that with privileges comes responsibility, and this is what she finds overwhelming.
“I thank God for using me to accomplish His purpose. I rededicate and recommit my life to God and trust Him to continue to lead me. Wherever He leads, I am ready to follow.”

[Gregory]

Female Commissioned Ministers who pastor churches are authorized to baptize.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, this raises the question of divine authority. If the GC in session votes for the ordination of women will you accept that as a divine mandate, or will you not accept it and thereby be in rebellion? Can you in good conscience give up your beliefs and convictions to the vote of the GC Session? Should they vote a mandate on the church that you strongly consider unbiblical would you say that Unions or Divisions that don't accept it are in rebellion, and if they are not, should they be?

Bob, I am interested to hear your response to Murcielago's questions...

See my reply at http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index.php/topic,2300.msg36062.html#msg36062.

[Bob Pickle]

report from the recent meeting also stated that there is no longer any exegetical question that needs to be answered in connection with female ministers.

Johann, what evidence is there that a majority of the world church no longer have exegetical concerns about such? I heard Sunday that some or most divisions don't even allow women to be elders.

2)  From what I have seen is that the commissioned ordination given now to women in ministry by their local conference - at least in some places - authorizes them to baptize.

Is it not true that the authorization "comes" from the office of local elder, not the commissioning?

[Bob Pickle]

Bob:

You sure have a way of mixing facts and defining them to defend your own bias.

...

Bob, I am amazed how efficient you are at splitting the Word of God in an attempt to let it fit your bias. When I read that quote of Ellen White I find it defining the ministry I was ordained to perform as well as the ministry our female pastors are called to perform. Your bias does not permit that definition, so I wonder . . .

What I wrote about the role of tithe-paid ministers not generally supposed to be pastoring local churches is pretty basic stuff. See Ev 382 as but one example. For the history about it all, see Damsteegt's article on it at http://www.andrews.edu/~damsteeg/Herewestand_sec_6.pdf.

But long before I read Damsteegt, I read two books on churches by non-Adventists, I think the publication dates being 1927 and 1940. I read the 2 and 10 pages those two books had on Adventists by the end of 1993, I believe. Both books said that Adventist churches didn't have pastors. Elders handled the pastoral work while the tithe-paid ministers, generally, were out in new fields raising up new churches.

And that's what we ought to go back to, if we want to see the work finished. Ethnicities that are more or less following that model are growing faster than we Caucasians who refuse to obey the counsel God has given us on this point.

[Johann]

Bob:

You sure have a way of mixing facts and defining them to defend your own bias.

...

Bob, I am amazed how efficient you are at splitting the Word of God in an attempt to let it fit your bias. When I read that quote of Ellen White I find it defining the ministry I was ordained to perform as well as the ministry our female pastors are called to perform. Your bias does not permit that definition, so I wonder . . .

What I wrote about the role of tithe-paid ministers not generally supposed to be pastoring local churches is pretty basic stuff. See Ev 382 as but one example. For the history about it all, see Damsteegt's article on it at http://www.andrews.edu/~damsteeg/Herewestand_sec_6.pdf.

But long before I read Damsteegt, I read two books on churches by non-Adventists, I think the publication dates being 1927 and 1940. I read the 2 and 10 pages those two books had on Adventists by the end of 1993, I believe. Both books said that Adventist churches didn't have pastors. Elders handled the pastoral work while the tithe-paid ministers, generally, were out in new fields raising up new churches.

And that's what we ought to go back to, if we want to see the work finished. Ethnicities that are more or less following that model are growing faster than we Caucasians who refuse to obey the counsel God has given us on this point.

Thank you, Bob. I  need reminders like you to see how much I need to watch and pray and study His Word. You and Damsteegt - this Dutch super theologian - keep reminding us how far we still have to go in order to fight Papacy within our own ranks.

Here we think we have reached so far in letting the pure Christianity of the Celts reach our shores when people like you come and remind us that the Celts are not our only pattern, it is Jesus Christ Himself. The enemy in hidden Papal garb is still working among us, and we have to keep our eyes on Jesus and pray and study.

We must also fully realize that the ordination of women is not the real goal, but it is listening to the Words of Jesus when He tells us the fields are white and ready to harvest. He urges us to pray for workers to go into these fields. When He answers our prayers by sending us the great unharnessed army of females, then the enemy gets scared and scatters among us his agents telling us how unfit they are for service.

I spent much time in prayer before the Lord gave me this insight. I will be 80 at my next birthday, so I must be thankful I can still be used to preach and pray and participate as a pastor at the Lord's supper. My physical strength is not what it has been, but I am still in good health, and perhaps the Lord can still use me to stifle some of the agents of Rome among us, it that is possible.

Praise be to the Lord and His holy name!

[Johann]

report from the recent meeting also stated that there is no longer any exegetical question that needs to be answered in connection with female ministers.

Johann, what evidence is there that a majority of the world church no longer have exegetical concerns about such? I heard Sunday that some or most divisions don't even allow women to be elders.

Thanks for reminding us how far we still have to go to harness the powerful workers in our churches. We do need to pray and watch and study His word to keep us humble and spiritually alive.

2)  From what I have seen is that the commissioned ordination given now to women in ministry by their local conference - at least in some places - authorizes them to baptize.

Is it not true that the authorization "comes" from the office of local elder, not the commissioning?

Have it your way, Bob, Thou art the screener, we are but clay. Somehow our Church uses the commissioning to connect this with the local elder, but if you feel your way of expressing it is more correct I have no problem with that. Just keep reminding me in case I should forget the correct way of expressing it. If you keep pointing out every mistake we make then we might even reach perfection. Thank you for helping us out.

[Bob Pickle]

Thank you, Bob. I  need reminders like you to see how much I need to watch and pray and study His Word. You and Damsteegt - this Dutch super theologian - keep reminding us how far we still have to go in order to fight Papacy within our own ranks.

It is true that Damsteegt connects the departure from the biblical model as being part of the development of the papal system. In the early centuries, he claims, local leadership of the church shifted from the elders to a resident pastor or bishop. That was one step in a process that led to all leadership being concentrated in a single bishop, the bishop of Rome.

[Gregory]

Is it not true that the authorization "comes" from the office of local elder, not the commissioning?

I would say: No.

Perhaps this differs in some parts outside of the U.S.?

Female Commissioned Ministers who pastor congregations in the U.S. do not have to seek individual  permission to baptize in the same manner that ordained male clergy do not have to seek individual permission to baptize.  Their auhorization to baptize, as I understand it, continues for as long as they hold their credentials.  However, it is expected of both that they will baptize within the teritory in which they were granted their credentials.

As I understand it, local Elders are only granted permission to baptize on a limtied basis.  If they wish to baptize outside of that basis, they must seek permission to do so.

E.G.  A local Elder could be given permission to hold a single baptism.  I suppose that the Local Conference could grant a local Elder permission to baptize only within the congregation of which they were a pastor and only for as long as they were a pastor of that congregation.

 

[Johann]

Thank you, Bob. I  need reminders like you to see how much I need to watch and pray and study His Word. You and Damsteegt - this Dutch super theologian - keep reminding us how far we still have to go in order to fight Papacy within our own ranks.

It is true that Damsteegt connects the departure from the biblical model as being part of the development of the papal system. In the early centuries, he claims, local leadership of the church shifted from the elders to a resident pastor or bishop. That was one step in a process that led to all leadership being concentrated in a single bishop, the bishop of Rome.

Thank you Bob. I suppose that is Damsteegt at his best. He certainly has produced quite a bit of good and helpful material.

I have just been studying Damsteegts presentation against the ordination of women, and I find it great. Great, because I think he might be the most powerful aid to those who support the ordination of women. You do not have to read far in his presentations before you discover his weaknesses, contradictions, and failure to produce a convincing argument for what he proposes. And yet he impresses the weak in Biblical knowledge with his Power Points and magic three point argumentation.

Just let him loose and people soon discover his leaning towards a papal interpretation of parts of Scripture, selecting texts and EGW quotations to support his bias. Did he get that inclination while attended the Catholic chapel when he was in the military and dancing was part of the service? Young females do yield a magic power on the thinking of young men. How could such tempting girls ever have an elevating spiritual influence on a man? Should they ever be ordained?

[Gregory]

Johann:  You can do much better than to mention Roman Catholic services  and dancing women in connection with a respected religious leader.

If you have facts to back something up, give them.  In the mean time your comment comes accross as very unfair.

Case in point:  Would it be fair to raise the same kind of comment about you and relate it to the reputation that some have given to women of Iceland?