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[Artiste]

If you initially want to avoid any persecution for your living faith, you must also reject the ordination of women - as long as possible. The delaying tactic might save your skin for a while, but for how long?

I'm sure neither Johann nor any of the other posters here wish to imply that disagreeing with the concept of the ordination of women is tantamount to saving one's skin from persecution.

Especially since that is the current position of the world Seventh-day Adventist church -- that is, the world church has voted to disagree with women's ordination for the time being.

[Artiste]

I'm wondering if the controversy in the church nowadays concerning whether or not women can be in top positions of authority in the church structure stem from a phenomenon that is mentioned from time to time in the popular press.

It is proposed by some experts that men in our Western culture have become feminized to a degree, possibly due to women becoming more aggressive in their behavior.

Or perhaps the men have simply become lazy and are willing to let women do more of the "heavy lifting" so to speak.

That might explain in part the glowing recommendations given to woman bosses and leaders, as we have seen expressed on this very site.

[Murcielago]

I'm wondering if the controversy in the church nowadays concerning whether or not women can be in top positions of authority in the church structure stem from a phenomenon that is mentioned from time to time in the popular press.

It is proposed by some experts that men in our Western culture have become feminized to a degree, possibly due to women becoming more aggressive in their behavior.

Or perhaps the men have simply become lazy and are willing to let women do more of the "heavy lifting" so to speak.

That might explain in part the glowing recommendations given to woman bosses and leaders, as we have seen expressed on this very site.

I have heard the same put-down of white people who like a black boss they may have, and of black people who may like a white boss they happen to have. It has been put forth by some in our culture that the black sports mystique has been a come hither to white young people who are losing their whiteness to this inferior culture. I have also heard black people angrily call their brother who enjoy living outside the ghettos Oreos. Black on the outside but white inside.

[Murcielago]

Either way, people just want to earn acceptance from the group they crave it from, whether the haters of themselves whose approval they crave, of the lovers of themselves, whose approval they crave. So they prostitute what they are on the market that will buy it or create martyrdom. Either way they think they win something.

[Gregory]

Bob asked:

Which part do you agree with? That any woman who is ordained today cannot possibly be ordained as a gospel minister, and must therefore only be ordained as a local elder? Or that the authority to authorize ordination belongs to union conferences?

1)   I agree that females who are ordained today (with one exception which I will mention) cannot be ordained as SDA clergy and therefore are only ordained as local Elders.  The local congregation has the authority to ordain local Elders.  It does not have to ask permission from anyone.

2)   The local Conference sends a list of the candidates that it wishes to ordain to the Union.  The union then grants permission for the Conference to ordain,   or, denies permission to ordain. 

3)   The Conference, in most cases, retains the authority to grant credentials and/or to rescind the credentials.  NOTE: In some cases, the authority to grant and rescind credentials is held by the Union, the Division and the General Conference.  E.G.  In my denominational work history, I have held credentials granted me by the General Conference, the Division and the local Conference.  Currently my credentials come from both the Division and the local Conference.  But, the majority of SDA Clergy hold credentials granted by the local Conference.

4)   In any case, once credentials are granted, the denomination further recognizes those credentials by entering the names of the people who hold those credentials into certain denominational records and so list them in the YEARBOOK.  My name is listed in those records and in the YEARBOOK.

5)   An exception to the above relates to females in China.  The General Conference recognizes women who have been ordained as clergy in China.
a)   Over a period of several years, the REVIEW has published articles which have announced to the world at large that women in China are recognized as ordained clergy.
b)   The names of women so recognized have been entered into official denominational records.
c)   The above is true in general.  It is also true that in a few cases, the actual status of an individual is in doubt.

6)   In summation, I believe with others:
a)   That the action of local congregations in North America to ordain females does not actually violate GC policy because it is only an ordination to the position of local Elder.
b)   China is not in violation of the policy because it has been granted an exception.

However, the issue does not end here.  There are those who believe that the General Conference does not have the authority to deny Divisions/Unions permission to ordain females.

1)   Divisions have always had the authority to amend GC policy as it is applied in their Division.  The question now is:  Does the Division authority to amend GC policy extend to allow the ordination, as clergy, of women?  In my mind, this question has not been definitively answered.  NOTE: The Division is NOT a separate organization level.  It is a part of the General Conference.  Therefore, if the Division amends a GC policy that is a General Conference action.

2)   The Unions clearly hold the authority to approve clergy ordinations.  Under what conditions does the General Conference have the authority to approve/deny clergy ordinations and take that authority away from the Unions?

3)   The purpose of the General Conference has always been to develop general uniform rules of action that apply throughout the world.   But, it has not been to develop specific applications of those rules of action.  That has been left to the Divisions and the Unions.

4)    For the General Conference to tell the Unions that they can continue to decide for males, but that they no longer have the authority to decide for females, is discriminatory and may be beyond the authority of the General Conference.

5)   In my opinion, the issues here are greater that whether or not females may become ordained clergy.  They involve the authority and role of the General Conference in the world church.

NOTE:  My attempt here has been to discuss denominational policy.  Some may say that such is not Biblical.  I have not attempted to discuss it from that point of view.

[Gregory]

In posting in this forum, I have clearly been selective in the responses that I make.  I pick and chose.

While I have clearly stated that I believe that it is Biblical for women to be ordained to clergy roles, I have generally not stated a Biblical position for my position.

In general I have not done so because I do not believe that I have anything important to add on the Biblical support for such a positon.  So much has already been published on both sides of this quesiton, that there is nothing more that I can add.  It is all available for people to read who wish to do so.  To be frank, I do not believe that the answer to this question is a "slam-dunk."  Rather, I beleive that ther are valid points that are made by each side.

However, I will state here that my personal position is guided by two issues which I believe are Biblical:

1) Ordination is not the fundamental Biblical issue. In regard to ordination, questions could be asked related to SDA practice as it applies to males and the extent to which those practices are Biblical.  The fundamential issue to me, is that of role.  IOW, what is the role that women should have in ministry?

2) As I look at the Biblical record, I see females in positions of spiritual authority throughout time--from OT times into NT times.

For the above two reasons, I support women as ordained clergy.

As to my understanding of specific Biblical texts, I do not expect toget into that discussion as others have done better than I bleive I could do.

[Gregory]

Artiste said:

That might explain in part the glowing recommendations given to woman bosses and leaders, as we have seen expressed on this very site.

How do you want to be judged?  Do you want to be judged on the basis of your individual accomplishments and/or failures, or do you want to be judged on the basis of the general class that includes you?

By any standard that you can develop, there will be both men and women who will meet that standard and men and women who will fail to meet that standard.

NOTE:  Do not come up with a trite response that tells me that women succeed at giving birth and men fail at that task.

[Johann]

I oppose the ordaining of women to the gospel ministry because I think it is contrary to Scripture.

You have the full right to your opposition, at least on a personal level,  and to be in agreement with Holmes. There you have a publication and are free to use his hermeneutics at getting to the understanding you have of the Bible. His hermeneutics are not generally accepted by the General Conference and have never been voted with a majority following at any General Assembly.

You have also admitted following the headship idea to support your Bible reading.

This headship idea is often associated with Sam Bacchiocchi, a man who obtained a gold medal from the pope himself for his scholarship. Another man associated with Bacchiocchi's ideas was Pippim who had to leave the ministry because of adultery.

Not only was Sam well known because of the distribution of his news letter but also due to his salesmanship, often selling his books from the pulpit during his Sabbath sermons, something I witnessed myself. Pippim was well known due to his activities among conservative theologians and his writings.

As far as I know their headship ideology was never accepted by a majority vote at any General Conference session. Here we are actually dealing with a doctrine that has not been approved. I find it strange that some are using this doctrine that has not been approved, - they use this to interpret Scripture so they can find fault with a procedure used by some which they feel has not been approved by the same authority.

At least the General Conference has issued a publication denying the validity of the headship ideology. They would hardly have done that if it had been accepted by a majority vote at any time.

Perhaps Holmes managed to improve on Sam and Pippim to make it more palatable?

[Gregory]

Johann said:

Pippim who had to leave the ministry because of adultery.

Are you positive.  I thought that that he resigned because he realized that he had entered into an "inappropriate relationship" which did not involve adultry.

I have not been a fan of Pippim.  However, if my memory above is accurate I will suggest that we should:

1) Acknowledge that he personally came to the conviction that he had committed a wrong that led him to believe that he should resign fromt the ministry.
2) Commend him for his personal confession to leadership and the Adventist public at large.
3) Refrain from expanding his sin beyond what we know it actualy to be.
4) Wish that all spiritual leaders who do wrong would be as willing to confess their wrong as he was.

Again, I am gong by memory as to what he and his President actually said.L LIt could be thatyou are correct.  If so there is much of what I have stated above that still applies.

Here is the public statement that Pippim has made:

http://campushope.com/resignation/

The actual facts I do not know and I do not need to know.  Johann, perhaps you are correct and perhaps you are not.  I just think that we should be careful as to what we say as opposed to what is public.

[Johann]

Gregory, What I remember is there came quite a bit of material, some of it from him self, and this was the conclusion I gathered at the time. I understood he was making such a confession, but I could be wrong!

http://www.terrisfp1.com/holidays/chick.html

[Artiste]

NOTE:  Do not come up with a trite response that tells me that women succeed at giving birth and men fail at that task.

I wonder if only someone of the male gender would use the term "trite" in conjunction with childbirth...

[Snoopy]

Maybe Miss Piggy has the answer...

[Artiste]

Good shot, Snoopy!

[Gregory]

Artiste:

I used the word"trite" in connection with a response that I asked not be made to my post.  It was not directly associated with child-birth.

[christian]

There is a worldly movie called Priest and it starts its opening with a futuristic look at the church and the churches motto is "to go against the church is to go against God."