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[horsethief]

The Southeastern California Conference has been in deliberate rebellion against duly constituted Church Authority for quite some time and here we see more bold and deliberate "in your face" rebellion.

The Southeastern California Conference has opposed and rejected the deception of 3abn. Therefore, they are doing what's right.

[horsethief]

In the Bible "sodomy" is a synonym for homosexuality. God spoke plainly on the matter when He said, "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel" (Deuteronomy 23:17). The whore and the sodomite are in the same category. A sodomite was not an inhabitant of Sodom nor a descendant of an inhabitant of Sodom, but a man who had given himself to homosexuality, the perverted and unnatural vice for which Sodom was known.

(I Corinthians 6:9; 10).Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. And then he adds the comment that some of the Christians at Corinth had been delivered from these very practices: "And such were some of you: But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). All of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God, but just as there was hope in Christ for the Corinthians, so is there hope for all of us.

The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

[Bob Pickle]

The Southeastern California Conference has been in deliberate rebellion against duly constituted Church Authority for quite some time and here we see more bold and deliberate "in your face" rebellion.

The Southeastern California Conference has opposed and rejected the deception of 3abn. Therefore, they are doing what's right.

horsethief, are you saying that SECC is right in voting to do what the GC Session voted not to allow?

I agree with you on your position on 1 Cor. 6:9, 10. Does the SECC? Does the SECC believe that homosexual practices like what Tommy engaged in, if unrepented of, will bar one from heaven? (I realize that they may not have made an official pronouncement. But there are those there who it seems do not agree with 1 Cor. 6:9, 10 on that topic.)

[Johann]

I find these comments of Jan Paulsen quite significant:

However, he added, "in fairness to the global church, many of you say, 'There are changes also taking place in the church in our part of the globe. We are not where we were 10 years ago.' It's a process of education, a process of growth. Maybe a new generation is needed. I don't know."

What I understand him as saying is that there is nothing in the Bible nor in the writings of E G White which prevents the ordination of women. What is needed is education and a process of growth before it can take place globally.

It is amazing how deep these roots from Augustine through the Roman Catholic Church still are ingrained even in our Church. I feel it is our duty to take part in this growth and education rather than prevent it and prolong the inevitable process.

[Johann]

Bob, does Paul specifically forbid women from being ordained to ministry?

An excellent question

[Bob Pickle]

I find these comments of Jan Paulsen quite significant:

However, he added, "in fairness to the global church, many of you say, 'There are changes also taking place in the church in our part of the globe. We are not where we were 10 years ago.' It's a process of education, a process of growth. Maybe a new generation is needed. I don't know."

What I understand him as saying is that there is nothing in the Bible nor in the writings of E G White which prevents the ordination of women. What is needed is education and a process of growth before it can take place globally.

Sure, that may be what he is saying. But that doesn't make him correct.

How does Jan Paulsen explain Paul's statements? Can he do so without invoking culture?

[horsethief]

Women have always been ministers though. Mary ministered to Christ by washing his feet.

[Johann]

I find these comments of Jan Paulsen quite significant:

However, he added, "in fairness to the global church, many of you say, 'There are changes also taking place in the church in our part of the globe. We are not where we were 10 years ago.' It's a process of education, a process of growth. Maybe a new generation is needed. I don't know."

What I understand him as saying is that there is nothing in the Bible nor in the writings of E G White which prevents the ordination of women. What is needed is education and a process of growth before it can take place globally.

Sure, that may be what he is saying. But that doesn't make him correct.

How does Jan Paulsen explain Paul's statements? Can he do so without invoking culture?

I have associated quite a bit with Jan in our youth. He is fully capable of explaining Paul's statements without a closed mind. His mind is not ingrained in a Roman mindset, even though he may have had some Roman Catholics around him when he was studying. I think that gave him a better idea of the difference between the two traditions. Something some people do not comprehend.

If you'd stop teaching Paul how he has come to his conclusions, if he had been you, you may start understanding what Paul is really saying. How do you know Paul had exactly the same thought that you have? Why don't you permit Paul to be Paul rather than mixing him up with cultural problems? Get to know him as he is, rather than you teaching him things from your own background.

You are a smart fellow, Bob, and you have accomplished great things for the Lord, also through your knowledge. Yet in this area you astonish me with the kind of answers you give. This is just not you.

You refusal to read David Newman tells me that you just don't dare in case it changes your Roman mindset. I have read everything I could get hold of at that time against the ordination of women. I wanted to be certain I was right. Have you read Viggo Norskov Olsen's treatise on Ordination?  Have you really read all that Elle White says about the priesthood of all believers? How that is a basis of her view of ordination? Are you willing to read that again leaving your own preconceived ideas of what your tradition tells you she should be saying - behind?

[Alex L. Walker]

Murceilago and Johann:

What do you suppose the Apostle Paul could have said to be even more clearer on his position of women clergy?

You seem to advocate that he was not clear enough, perhaps he could have been more clearer?

[Bob Pickle]

Have you really read all that Elle White says about the priesthood of all believers?

Johann, is it true that the priesthood of all believers is an OT concept, since God told Israel they were to be a kingdom of priests? Ex. 19:6.

If that be so, and if that concept then means that everyone can be anointed or ordained as a priest, why then weren't any women ordained as priests in the OT?

And if that concept means that everyone can be a priest, why was King Uzziah smitten with leprosy and King Saul severely reprimanded by Samuel when they did what only priests were supposed to do?

[Alex L. Walker]

How could Paul be more clearer? To be a MAN of one wife.

[Alex L. Walker]

Perhaps the apostle Paul was just a sexist.

The Bible tellls the wives to subject themselves to their husbands. What does this mean?

Perhaps, Eve should have been in control and not Adam.

I have just as much issue with a lady preacher as many do a practicing homosexual preaching.

Neither is of God. It is wrong.

[Gregory]

Snoopy said:

My issue is with Alex trying to equate homosexual pastors to female pastors and saying that Paul is equally clear on both.  I disagree.  It is that simple!!

I did not understand that.  Thanks for the clairfication.

[Artiste]

You refusal to read David Newman tells me that you just don't dare in case it changes your Roman mindset.

I don't agree that Bob Pickle has a "Roman mindset".

[Artiste]

With all due respect to the various members commenting on women's ordination, I don't understand the concept of Roman influence here.

I believe this is a more European-type mind issue than American.  And European Adventists are widely known to be more liberal in their ideas and practices than the typical American Adventist.  (This would not apply so much to the liberal Southern Californians.)

While David Newman was formerly the respected editor of Ministry Magazine, he seems to be going quite off base in his current position as editor of Adventist Today.

He has Erv Taylor, who initiated AT, on his staff.  Taylor is well-known as a hard core evolutionist.

AT is supposed to be an alternative to the Adventist Review.  However, it's articles and comments don't tend to be supportive of the world church structure.