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[Gregory]

My argument is people do not chose to be homosexual. It is not a choice, and addiction, nor is it a disease.

Correct.  It is none of the above.  But, saying so does not give people license to behave.

[horsethief]

 
In the Bible "sodomy" is a synonym for homosexuality. God spoke plainly on the matter when He said, "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel" (Deuteronomy 23:17). The whore and the sodomite are in the same category. A sodomite was not an inhabitant of Sodom nor a descendant of an inhabitant of Sodom, but a man who had given himself to homosexuality, the perverted and unnatural vice for which Sodom was known.

(I Corinthians 6:9; 10).Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. And then he adds the comment that some of the Christians at Corinth had been delivered from these very practices: "And such were some of you: But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). All of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God, but just as there was hope in Christ for the Corinthians, so is there hope for all of us.

The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

[Gregory]

Deleted.  I decided that this post did not say anytling important.   

[tinka]

Alex,

I read your other posts and it caused immediately a really big question of which it never entered my mind till I read your recent posts.

Maybe you did not quite understand where I was coming from and that is my fault as words don't come together for me like they used to. although I am still very cautious to try to read other people word for word and sometimes don't get it right too.But...what I was suggesting is how the attraction to other men could have happened? I probably spelled it out into many words the long way around but I feel beyond that this choice has had to be "developed" since birth etc. But what I am sort of reading between the lines of your points is you feel you were born this way and that is your choice to be or not to be active . I don't know if you realize that it seems that you sort of bring out that could be your very own preference? and nothing along any suggestions of what "developed" this.

 If that is the case then TS knew and you were willing and then that would sort of present a whole new ball game here as your early age wanted to experience what you failed to realize how you came into that position. That is why I suggested you contemplate everything as much as you could to question Why are you at this position now! Why would you go after the criminal part? - If....that was your preference.  That would make a really big difference if that is what you prefer.  Then TS should not be in jail! on just your account that is!  I read others had complaints against him and maybe do not take the same view? I am very curious about this.

[Bob Pickle]

As I state prior, as someone who has struggled with homosexuality, I know first hand that it is not a choice. That is my point. However, it is up to me whether or not I pursue my homosexuality desires.

None of us choose to have all the desires that we have. But Alex, would you agree that the intensity of some of our desires can be tied to choices that we make? For example, a recovering alcoholic could have a more intense desire if he chooses to go into a bar ... just to visit some old friends ... just once.

And since it is a choice whether or not you pursue homosexual or other types of desires, is it not therefore sometimes a choice how long the desire lasts? For example, if one somewhat pursues a desire by thinking a bit about it, does that not intensify the desire? So do we not have some control in Christ over the intensity or duration of our desires, even though we still may battle with our desires until Christ returns?

[Alex L. Walker]

No. I do not agree.

[childoftheking]

May not a young homosexual who was molested by someone of the same sex feel just as much resentment over having been abused as a young heterosexual would feel about having been molested by someone of the opposite sex? Children have the right not to be used by predators - whatever the child's gender or orientation.

This is entirely aside from the question of whether homosexuality is negative. I'm talking about repecting the rights of the child.

Contracts, for instance, entered into by minors are not legal because minors are understood not to have the experience and judgement of an adult. That is why there are laws protecting minors. The minor is not able to give the informed consent that an adult might. Children are in a constant state of learning abut life by what they experience and are innocently open to learning in this way. Sometimes they have positive mentors , but sometimes people take advantage of the openness of children.  Children should be protected by society until they are mature enough to be wary of those who have no scruples about using them for selfish purposes with no regard to the welfare of the child.

Does not an adult often think back over his or her childhood (whether it has been good or bad) with a whole new mind set?

[Johann]

May not a young homosexual who was molested by someone of the same sex feel just as much resentment over having been abused as a young heterosexual would feel about having been molested by someone of the opposite sex? Children have the right not to be used by predators - whatever the child's gender or orientation.

This is entirely aside from the question of whether homosexuality is negative. I'm talking about repecting the rights of the child.

Contracts, for instance, entered into by minors are not legal because minors are understood not to have the experience and judgement of an adult. That is why there are laws protecting minors. The minor is not able to give the informed consent that an adult might. Children are in a constant state of learning abut life by what they experience and are innocently open to learning in this way. Sometimes they have positive mentors , but sometimes people take advantage of the openness of children.  Children should be protected by society until they are mature enough to be wary of those who have no scruples about using them for selfish purposes with no regard to the welfare of the child.

Does not an adult often think back over his or her childhood (whether it has been good or bad) with a whole new mind set?

You are so right. This discussion did not belong to the discussion about Tommy Shelton. That was a question of molesting a minor regardless of gender.

[Bob Pickle]

My impression has been that there have been more young men who have been in Tommy's churches that struggle in this area than in the general population. That tells me that there is a possibility that Tommy's abuse has caused part of this problem.

Revelation 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I think it is possible that the pedophile priests have ultimately been the cause of a lot of the modern gay rights movement. Not sure what Benedict would say about it, but that's what I think.

[horsethief]

Is the time coming where the doctor turns to the happy mother and father after delivering their new baby and says "CONGRATULATIONS! It's a GAY!?"

Nah... I don't think so, thankfully.

This notion that boys are born with a natural inclination to be sexually attracted to other boys and later to other men is just an excuse. It's still an abomination. There's no escaping that.

[Johann]

Last year the police in our area were trying to catch someone who traveled around molesting horses sexually, leaving them with wounds. We never heard if the police caught the culprit. Was he born with a preference to horses rather than humans? Or did that develop with him at a later age? Should authorities provide him with a stable where he could "love" his own horses rather than molest other horses?

I should add that Icelandic horses is a smaller breed than most other horses.

[christian]

Last year the police in our area were trying to catch someone who traveled around molesting horses sexually, leaving them with wounds. We never heard if the police caught the culprit. Was he born with a preference to horses rather than humans? Or did that develop with him at a later age? Should authorities provide him with a stable where he could "love" his own horses rather than molest other horses?

I should add that Icelandic horses is a smaller breed than most other horses.

 Johann, that is just wrong and sick, though it did make me laugh.------ I think we are discussing something that will only fully be known when Christ comes. As for the right and wrong of it (homosexuality) there is no doubt that the ACT OF HOMOSEXUALITY is a sin. But (ALL) sin cherished will cause separation from God, gossipers, liars, Adulterers, fornicators etc...

[Gregory]

Is the time coming where the doctor turns to the happy mother and father after delivering their new baby and says "CONGRATULATIONS! It's a GAY!?"

Surely you do not believe that a homosexual has anatomical differences with a heterosexual!        

[horsethief]

I'm not saying that Gregory and you know that. What I am saying is that the suggestion, or rather the insistence that gay people should be treated like a minority group in our society because, as many in the gay community insist, they are born with a same-sex attraction and thus should be allowed special preferences in our society is misguided and wrong.

I have heard it said that the struggle that gays are supposedly having with employment, seeking same-sex marriage and receiving health benefits for their partners is akin to the civil rights struggles that the blacks experienced in overcoming the racial barriers that they faced. Well no, it is not the same and it is demeaning to minorities in our society who really have struggled to overcome unjust racial barriers.

[Bob Pickle]

A sociologist told me a number of years ago that there were movements afoot to make pedophilia a sexual orientation. Tommy Shelton would probably like it if it were made illegal to discriminate against pedophiles.

Johann's discussion about horses raises the question as to whether that too could be considered an orientation that people are born with.

What about Natural Born Killers? Is that an orientation too that some people are born with?

What we are born with or not born with is never an excuse for sin.