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[Snoopy]

Last week, Randy Roberts, Senior Pastor of the Loma Linda University Church preached a fantastic, on-point sermon that is well worth the time if you care to listen to it.

http://www.lluc.org/site/1/podcast/February_11,_2012_audio_sermon_1-2-MP3_for_Audio_Podcasting.mp3

He notes that our church started out being aggressively opposed to organization, but now the SDA church is the most highly structured church in the history of Christianity.

In a nutshell, his point is this - "Does our structure further our mission?  Or has our structure become our mission?"

[GRAT]

The whole series has been excellent.  They are rebroadcast on LLBN Friday evening at 7:30 Pacific time.  I agree, well worth hearing!

[Bob Pickle]

What does "most highly structured" mean? In what way is this true?

One thing we do not have, to my knowledge, is a consolidation of lots of power in a few people's hands.

[Snoopy]

What does "most highly structured" mean? In what way is this true?

One thing we do not have, to my knowledge, is a consolidation of lots of power in a few people's hands.

My understanding was that it means the number of levels of hierarchy between the local congregation and the top level.  Here is the Adventist structure:

     Local Congregation
     Local Conference
     Union Conference
     Division
     General Conference

That's a huge amount of overhead, bureacracy and committees!!

[princessdi]

.....and redundancy.  What is the Union and Division levels doing that can't be done in the local or General conferences.(Nt to take my friend's Dr. Graham's(PUC president) job away, but I just have to ask.

[Bob Pickle]

Back around 1989 a professor from one of our colleges explained to a group of pastors that if you remove the unions from the picture, the local church becomes a smaller cog in a bigger machine. The unions are somewhat of a buffer.

We certainly don't want a centralization of power. If there are no unions, would be not have that?

Gailon has said that the unions used to be in charge of the health work. When our health institutions were removed from the unions, he says they lost part of the reason for their existence.

[Snoopy]

Back around 1989 a professor from one of our colleges explained to a group of pastors that if you remove the unions from the picture, the local church becomes a smaller cog in a bigger machine. The unions are somewhat of a buffer.

We certainly don't want a centralization of power. If there are no unions, would be not have that?

Gailon has said that the unions used to be in charge of the health work. When our health institutions were removed from the unions, he says they lost part of the reason for their existence.

Then what's the point of the local conference?  And the divisions?

[Johann]

In Europe changes have taken place in several countries. In some countries conferences with only a few hundred members were eliminated and just a union remains (Denmark). In Norway they still have Conferences but eliminated the offices. Departmental secretaries and treasurer are only on the union level.

[Murcielago]

There is a fine line when one looks at "the church" and its mission. Look, for example at baptism. Baptism is an act that brings a person into "the church." If a person wanted to be baptized into Christ but not into a congregation, would the Adventist denomination allow for that? Is the intent to bring people into support of the structure, or is it to bring them into a relationship with Jesus?

That said, despite the structural complexity and obvious top-heaviness of the SDA denomination, it remains that individual congregations and conferences often have a surprising autonomy. I live in a conference that ordains women as pastors despite the General Conference which disallows it. The Church Manual says that there is no higher authority under God among SDAs than that of the General Conference in session. But although the GC in session has consistently voted down the ordination of women, we have long been ordaining women as pastors here. They baptize,  preach, teach, counsel and do everything that their male counterparts do, for pay, and the GC does not interfere. It has been argued that this is because our conference brings in more money for the world church than most divisions, yet the fact remains that we, and other conferences, have shown substantial autonomy.

[Gregory]

Baptism:  In the historic past, SDA Clergy who were known to baptize people who did not join a congregation were told  to stop.  At the present, SDA Clergy will sometimes baptize people who do not join a congregation and little attention  is paid to this.

Ordination of female pastors:  The official position of the denomination is that those congregations who ordain women are only ordaining them as local elders, which they have the authority to do.  It is not a matter of money.  However, China has been granted an excepteion, as reported in the REVIEW in two different articles some years apart.  In China women who have been ordained as SDA clergy are officially recognized by the denominaiton as SDA clergy.  In other parts of the world, female pastors are officially Comissioned but not ordained.

NOTE:  For a number of years, EGW carried the credentials of an Ordained SDA Minister and was so listed in official records of the denomination.  Those who support the ordination of women use this to say that EGW was ordained clergy.  Those who object to the ordination of women corrrectly point out the male SDA clergy did not lay hands upon her in either a public or a private ceremony.  So, take your pick as to how you intrepret the historical fact the she was  credentialed and listed in records as ordained SDA Clergy.

 

[Bob Pickle]

Back around 1989 a professor from one of our colleges explained to a group of pastors that if you remove the unions from the picture, the local church becomes a smaller cog in a bigger machine. The unions are somewhat of a buffer.

We certainly don't want a centralization of power. If there are no unions, would be not have that?

Gailon has said that the unions used to be in charge of the health work. When our health institutions were removed from the unions, he says they lost part of the reason for their existence.

Then what's the point of the local conference?  And the divisions?

The point is to spread out the authority as much as practical. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Gregory]

I believe so strongly that Christians who are free to associate with a congregation should do so, that I have taken the personal position that I will not baptize someone who has the freedom to associate with a local congregation and refuses to do so.  However, I can think of unusual circumstances where I would baptize someone who was unable to associate with a local congregation.

You know, God leads.  It is my personal opinion that God has lead in China and it is therefore our responsibility as spiritual leaders to follow that leading of God, once we recognize it as God’s leading, regardless of whether or not we fully understand all aspects of it.

I am reminded of a SDA Conference that I attended a couple of years ago.  Every clergyperson present was either credentialed by the General Conference or the NAD.  One participant told a story of clearly the leading of God.  In recent times, he had found himself, as one of two citizens of the United States, on the deck of a large ship in International waters and in command of that ship.  If he gave an order, the crew of that ship was obligated to obey.  The second U.S. citizen on the ship was an armed body guard who was there to protect his life from a crew member who might not want to obey.  As he was placed in that position, he had called out to God, “Why?  Why me?”

The answer came shortly after he was placed in command of that ship.  He had been placed there to baptize a Christian and one who knew nothing about the SDA Church.  Shortly after he performed his duty he was removed from the ship and another person was placed in charge.
His story was a moving one which cannot be told in detail at this time.  He looks forward to the time when It can be publicly told.

Folks, God is in charge.  God leads.  Sometimes God leads in ways that we do not expect.

[Gregory]

Please do not speculate on the facts of my story of an unusual baptism.

[Johann]

In the official websites of the church in some European countries you find listed a number of female church pastors in the employment of the church.

[Gregory]

That is allowed and does not violate policy.