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[Alex L. Walker]

Undercovering_Truth posted this:

Re: Stop the insanity!
by uncovering truth » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:37 am UTC

Won't it be interesting when/if Alex takes the stand (and if his attorneys are as billed, they will do everything to keep him off the stand), under cross his propensity to lie will be revealed and his testimony will be of no account. He can bluster all he wants to . . . but in the end he will be his own worst enemy.

Wonder how fast Gailon and Robert will drop him at that point. Watch out for stray buses Alex.

I am assuming you are talking about the civil trial?
Will Tommy take the stand? How about Brad? Maybe even Danny?
You probably don't want to open those can of worms,  undercovering_truth.

Will I take the stand? You bet I will.

[Murcielago]

under cross his propensity to lie will be revealed and his testimony will be of no account.

Does this principle apply to the "Sam"s and their testimony and statements?

[princessdi]

You would think so, wouldn't you, Christian. Man they are only regrouping.  Jes' wait until you see the spin on this one.  LOL!!!

This one might even rival the "spiritual adultery" thingy.  That one had us shaking our heads for.......well I am still shaking my head at that one........make up your own grounds for a divorce...........and stick to so long you start believing it.  How bold is that?  Actually there is a name for that...........SMH..............Bless his heart..........

You talk about being caught in a lie hahahah that was classic. I cant imagine they will come back into this forum again, but maybe they will since they are such a liar. Boy, you talking about a wack case they really are. I laughed and laughed, some people are soooooo stupid.

Multiple personalities posting under "Sam" -- definitely a violation of forum rules.

But you're right, Snoopy!  Much entertainment value!

Isn't multiple personalities supposed to be a mental illness?

[Snoopy]

You would think so, wouldn't you, Christian. Man they are only regrouping.  Jes' wait until you see the spin on this one.  LOL!!!

I agree, Di.  There is some serious regrouping and spinning going on somewhere.  And they have to decide who is going to be the next "Sam"...  But they will be back - that is a given.

[christian]

Princess, I recall a friend telling me that when Adventist go wrong they go father wrong or extreme than others do. And I was told that Adventist have a cult mentality of which I don't personally totally believe. What I believe is that Adventist have a predisposition towards the love of money and fame. We sell out for the world very quickly like the Jews did to Christ to keep "their" positions. Our preachers walk around (not all) but a very many (notice I said our) with a , I am a servant of God, and your need to follow me and yield to my authority (what authority). Some preacher are out there pushing poncy schemes and get rich fast schemes and riding in Mercedes and and strong arming the people for tithe. The fact that they got these things (I ain't haten) but if you going to do it why do it in the name of God. It is when they go on about how God gave them this and that (NOT ALL THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD KIND SINCERE PASTER) because they in his (GODS) service is when it gets weird. What I am saying is if you working for the Devil go ahead and work for him. Its like I told my daughter I cant keep you from doing wrong but if you decide you want to do it wear some protection. I will probably say this a million more times Danny's and his bothers biggest sin is that they did what they did under the cover of truth (the gospel of Jesus). The prodigals sons best decision is that he left home and without pretense went out and did his thing. But the real sad one was the one that feigned love for the father while all the time hating where he was. You know I would bet that most here in this forum would have forgiven Danny (not speaking to the brothers molestation) and been praying for him if he had not tried to use the Lord as an excuse (spiritual adultery)? How can you be forgiven if you refuse to recognize the fact that you have done something wrong? It is the worst kind of sin you could do, it is called unprotected sin. God would say in the scriptures I wish that you were hot or cold but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth.

You would think so, wouldn't you, Christian. Man they are only regrouping.  Jes' wait until you see the spin on this one.  LOL!!!

This one might even rival the "spiritual adultery" thingy.  That one had us shaking our heads for.......well I am still shaking my head at that one........make up your own grounds for a divorce...........and stick to so long you start believing it.  How bold is that?  Actually there is a name for that...........SMH..............Bless his heart..........

You talk about being caught in a lie hahahah that was classic. I cant imagine they will come back into this forum again, but maybe they will since they are such a liar. Boy, you talking about a wack case they really are. I laughed and laughed, some people are soooooo stupid.

Multiple personalities posting under "Sam" -- definitely a violation of forum rules.

But you're right, Snoopy!  Much entertainment value!

Isn't multiple personalities supposed to be a mental illness?

[Murcielago]

Shortly after Jesus died and went to heaven there were people living for the money that could be made off his teachings. That is also true of today. every possible dollar that can be made off each donor/sucker is what drives the televangelists who make money off the people who fall for their stories. They drive your feelings of guilt for the people who will be lost if you don't give, and make you feel good about the people who worship at the feet of who/what you are in the context of worship of your superior understanding everything biblical.

[Johann]

In our present fallen world, injustice abounds. Very often the poor do not receive their dues while those who can afford high-priced lawyers go free. We live in an age when iniquity abounds, when man’s inhumanity against his fellow man knows no limits, when evil seemingly goes unchecked, when “truth [is] forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne.”*

* From James Russell Lowell, “The Present Crisis,” 1844.

William G. Johnson: From today's Week of Prayer reading.

[christian]

Yet, fortunately we know the rest of the story and in the end truth does triumph and justice does prevail. The key is to remember that though our struggles may be hard we are on the winning side the same as our Lord was in the dark hours prior to his death. Actually Jesus was more triumphant than at anytime in his ministry for mankind when he hung on the cross between heaven and earth.

Has anyone read the latest on Don Shula and the Crystal Cathedral, once again a ministry robbing the people in the name of God.

In our present fallen world, injustice abounds. Very often the poor do not receive their dues while those who can afford high-priced lawyers go free. We live in an age when iniquity abounds, when man’s inhumanity against his fellow man knows no limits, when evil seemingly goes unchecked, when “truth [is] forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne.”*

* From James Russell Lowell, “The Present Crisis,” 1844.

William G. Johnson: From today's Week of Prayer reading.

[ex3abnemployee]

Teresa, you think you know who I am?  I have never met Tammy Chance or Bruce Chance in person. I assume that is who you mean by saying Tammy? I have never been to 3ABN. Like I said, I did some investigating and got this info.  I personally talked to a number of people who all said the same thing.  I added two plus two and found it equaled four.

I think we may have just witnessed an identity change, right here before our very eyes...  Imagine that.

Teresa, don't bother responding to that.  It's a moving identity target...

I believe you are right, Snoopy.  Let's do some research here.

Earlier Post from Sam:

1.) 2143ABN / eBay Sales Controversy?
« on: June 01, 2008, 10:09:29 AM »
C'mon Bob. Even those here that hate 3abn that watched can tell you different. I just got back late last night from attending the 3abn campmeeting. Am so happy to be able now to answer some of your questions that have been posted the last few days.

Never been to 3ABN, huh?


2.)2013ABN / Re: "single ... statement remotely related to Danny Shelton's personal finances
« on: June 12, 2008, 10:16:15 PM »

I said before I was able to attend the TC/campmeeting and there were record crowds. They give tours of the facilities and they are unbelievable. There is now a new kids time set which is already operational!  The sound center recording studio has branched out to be able to offer soundtracks to the public.  New programs are in the works!  The ladies that take orders and answer questions at the call center say the phones are busy constantly.  The thursday night lives are more popular than ever. I know, I called there with a question one thursday night and was on hold for 18 minutes!

Never been to 3ABN, huh?

3.)1503ABN / Re: Jim Gilley and Danny Shelton
« on: July 23, 2008, 09:23:17 PM »

Sorry to disappoint you but I saw and heard quite the opposite while visiting the TC weekend at 3abn in May. I had plenty of time to mingle with those attending as well as the pastors, speakers and guests.  I heard over and over again how much everyone wanted Danny back on the air full time instead of just part time. THey were thrilled that he took such a large part in the campmeeting/TC event.  I heard many people say that Jim was great, but 3abn was Danny. Pastor Jim told me himself his hope is that after Danny has had a well earned rest, he hopes for him to come back to his former position.

Never been to 3ABN, huh?

4.)203ABN / Re: Sheltons express support for Tommy's victims
Adam,

I take it you know Danny Shelton personally?  No you don't so how can you talk as if you have an intelligent opinion on the matter when you no nothing about 3abn, Danny or anything else.  You show your ignorance when you say Tommy had easy access to children at 3abn. That says a lot.  Anyone, and I mean anyone that has ever been to a kids time production would laugh you out of town.  There is a control room full of people who see everything through the camera's eyes.  There is a crew out on the set.  There are parents everywhere..on the set and off.  The kids that are off the set are with their parents until their turn comes to be on the set. The kids that are on the set are being taped on television. The Mitcheff sisters are there doing the programs. There are so many people you can't turn around.  Tommy's involvment was for the Mitcheffs to call him and ask him to come on the set and play a song for a kid to sing. Get it?  Come on the set, where the kid, the crew, the Mitcheffs and the Control room are all watching, sit down at the piano, play the song, the floor director says Cut, and Tommy leaves.  Had any of you ever been there you might, might, have an opinion but since you haven't been there you have no credibility in your opinions that are based on nothing.

How would you know this unless you have been there???

2143ABN / eBay Sales Controversy?
 For FRAN.  From Mr. Chance directly:  The beginning of a store was a learning experience. Learning the best way to sell, what to sell, and what payment methods to take.  They had to learn about paypal and its process.  In the beginning they accepted checks, money orders, credit card and then paypal. After a time they found that buyers were taking an excessive amount of time to mail in checks and money orders so eventually, they quit taking those methods of payments.  Every month the invoices from ebay and paypal are downloaded, printed out and given to the accounting department, along with copies of the actual sales, buyers name and address and when the item was sold and then shipped. All of these records are turned over to Accounting every month. Credit card payments are not taken by the donations department but directly by the accounting department. Accounting is the number listed on ebay to call for cc payment.  Each item that is sold is then entered into the database that has the donor's information and constituent number. The item sold is recorded along with the date it was sold and the price it was sold for.  Those records are given to the Accounting dept every month so that the donor can be receipted for the sale of their item

Thought you never talked to the Chances???

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Excellent, EXCELLENT post, Alex! Can't wait to hear the spin on this one.

[princessdi]

    Well now Christian, I see a good bit of that with the pastors also.  I also agree on the cult mentality.  But what I believe is happened is that in an effort to advoid the abuses of pastors who stay to long, create followings for themselves, etc.  we swung too far the other way.  So now you have these pastors trying to manipulate the system to get extra salary.  I believe there are requirements that the church puts upon the pastor, some unwritten or implied, and they are not covered with the "modest" salary.  Example:  They get generous discounts for sending their children to SDA schools.......well they should because it is basically implied, definitely expected to send ALL of their children straight through SDA schools all the way to college.(A side point of information.  Someone told me that the discount is like 75%.  Can someone confirm that for me, please?)

I know about this first hand, and it can be devastating to a church. I have seen some real ugly stuff in the past few years.  We need a better program for choosing our pastors. 

 

Princess, I recall a friend telling me that when Adventist go wrong they go father wrong or extreme than others do. And I was told that Adventist have a cult mentality of which I don't personally totally believe. What I believe is that Adventist have a predisposition towards the love of money and fame. We sell out for the world very quickly like the Jews did to Christ to keep "their" positions. Our preachers walk around (not all) but a very many (notice I said our) with a , I am a servant of God, and your need to follow me and yield to my authority (what authority). Some preacher are out there pushing poncy schemes and get rich fast schemes and riding in Mercedes and and strong arming the people for tithe. The fact that they got these things (I ain't haten) but if you going to do it why do it in the name of God. It is when they go on about how God gave them this and that (NOT ALL THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD KIND SINCERE PASTER) because they in his (GODS) service is when it gets weird. What I am saying is if you working for the Devil go ahead and work for him. Its like I told my daughter I cant keep you from doing wrong but if you decide you want to do it wear some protection. I will probably say this a million more times Danny's and his bothers biggest sin is that they did what they did under the cover of truth (the gospel of Jesus). The prodigals sons best decision is that he left home and without pretense went out and did his thing. But the real sad one was the one that feigned love for the father while all the time hating where he was. You know I would bet that most here in this forum would have forgiven Danny (not speaking to the brothers molestation) and been praying for him if he had not tried to use the Lord as an excuse (spiritual adultery)? How can you be forgiven if you refuse to recognize the fact that you have done something wrong? It is the worst kind of sin you could do, it is called unprotected sin. God would say in the scriptures I wish that you were hot or cold but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth.

[Murcielago]

Again, Princess, I ask how much Jesus' salary was, how expensive was his house, how many chariots and horses did he have at donor expense? When he died what did he leave other than the clothes off his back? Nothing but a legacy of healing, forgiving, and rebuilding everyone around him. Jesus took nothing but gave everything. Is anyone we know of better or more deserving than him? any pastor, singer, evangelist, televangelist, or any other person purporting to represent God to the rest of us? If Jesus didn't take from the people and become wealthier than them, who should? Who amongst us deserves more than Jesus?

And what happened to the fools who tried to profit off the gospel in the new testament? Based on that, how should we deal with or view those who profit off the gospel today?

[Bob Pickle]

Example:  They get generous discounts for sending their children to SDA schools.......well they should because it is basically implied, definitely expected to send ALL of their children straight through SDA schools all the way to college.(A side point of information.  Someone told me that the discount is like 75%.  Can someone confirm that for me, please?)

I don't recall that figure. I recall assistance with tuition but not with room and board, but it's been too long to remember the details.

But what I do remember is a pastor telling me that since there was no assistance with paying the extra taxes that the educational subsidy created, it was difficult sometimes to cover all one's expenses. So a pastor with the educational subsidy had less disposable income than the pastor without, because of the extra taxes.

Those pastors who have not opted out of Social Security must pay self-employment tax on all their income, which amounts to roughly twice what an employee might pay. Pastors for Social Security purposes are treated as if they are self-employed.

[Gregory]

I have never recieved a cent in denominational subsidy for any of my children and I have had three.

I believe the standard subsidy is 35% of the tutition for day schools and about twice that when the person was boarding at tht school.  So, it could be 75% as was mentioned.

Bob is correct as to the tax issue.

As to opting out of Social Security:  In the begainning some SDA clergy did opt out.  It is still possible for such to do so today.  However, I would suspect that very very few do so.  For years the denominational retirement system was predicated on the assumption that the pastor would participate in Social Security, even though it was not required.

I am not up on the recent changes to the denominational retirement system when it was moved from a "Defined benefit" system to a "defined contribution system."   

As to the current suitation:  We have many pstors in the U. S.who cannot afford to live near thir assigned church.  What kind of pastoral care can be provided when a pstor lives 100 miles away from their assigned church?


We have in many ways we have moved from a system where people are paid according to need to a system where they are paid a set salery modified by local cost of living or transportation expenses.  When I was a pastor, all of the homes we lived in were owned by the Conference.  In two cases, the Conference selected and purchased the homes we lived in based upon what thy thought we needed.  N real choice, here you are, live here.   

In the first place, the Conference purchased a very small 2-bedroom home that did not have any closets  in it.  So, they had the Conference contractor build an extension on the home that added a built-in closet to each bedroom and a car-port for the car we drove.


Conferences got out of the home-ownership business due to the costs of maintaince and dissatisfaction of employees over the lack of ownership.

In the beginning when they got out of home ownership, they found a need toloan money to their employees so they couldp urchase a home.  When they did that, they often took a portion of the profits when the house was sold, but the employee could not sell a loss.  Such was built into the loan contract.

[Johann]

<many similarities world wide. Through most of my service with the Seventh-day Adventist Church we lived in housing provided by the church. This was the case in Denmark, Norway, Faroe Islands, Iceland, Sierra Leone, Nigeria, intil the Danish government wanted to tax the benefits we received from the housing provided, so the last years in active pastoral work we lived in a house of our own. At that time the Conference sold several of their houses.

When I retired about 12 years ago I received my "sustentation" from the Church until the Danish government stopped it and required the church to arrange all of their retirement payments to be paid through a life insurance company. This is to insure all the workers get their retirement benefits in case the Church is insolvent.

[Bob Pickle]

I believe the standard subsidy is 35% of the tutition for day schools and about twice that when the person was boarding at tht school.  So, it could be 75% as was mentioned.

I'm informed that it is 70% if one is boarding. If room and board equal tuition costs, then it amounts to 35% of the entire bill, since there is 0% help with room and board.