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[Bob Pickle]

Speaking of  Jesuits, I posted on of the biggest scams of Christianity, Alberto Rivera.
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459214.html

Stan, I'm not saying Rivera was legit, but I did read the 1981 article referred to. The only thing I remember about it was that part of the proof that Rivera wasn't ever a Jesuit or Catholic priest was that some Catholic organization that would have been involved if he had been said that he wasn't.

I didn't find that convincing.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Actually, Rivera inadvertently exposed a real honest to goodness "Jesuit" graduated from Loyola in the Dominican that was working within the "independent" ministries of the 90's. Not only admitted it but got on a jet plane and went back from whence he came.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Murcielago]

Got any further info on that?

Actually, Rivera inadvertently exposed a real honest to goodness "Jesuit" graduated from Loyola in the Dominican that was working within the "independent" ministries of the 90's. Not only admitted it but got on a jet plane and went back from whence he came.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Sam]

Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?

If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?

Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?
[/quote]

I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.

As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way  ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler. In fact...why haven't you called his parents?  You have made hundreds of calls to try and dig up dirt on 3abn and Tommy but haven't talked to anyone in Alex's family that might dispute his stories. That seems a little one sided to me Bob. Doesn't back up your continual claims that you just want truth. I believe I challenged you before to talk to Alex's parents but it never happened...why Bob?  I'll answer that. You only want "truth" if it is something against 3abn or those that work there.  If your "inquiries" discover anything good, that never sees the light of day.

Maybe you should stick to worrying about your own home and problems. After all, your wife has made claims of abusive behaviour by you to different people she has talked to. I have heard she also says she can't deal with your "obsession" with 3abn.  Good for her because, Bob, it is a sickness where you are concerned. Please try and seek help.

[Sam]

Sam you have got some nerve. First, none of which you say can be proven, but I on the other hand can prove you're a liar. You keep up bringing up the gay issue like it's a bad thing? Yet, you fail to realize you defend an admitted pedophile who is what? GAY! Now your nonsense and half truths is getting old, so I will not respond to you anymore. One other thing John Manly withdrawing from my case had nothing to do with whether he believed me or not so quit insinuating he did, or Ill prove your cowardly [censored] wrong.

Finally, you quit using Adam's name. Good job!

What I say can be proven if your sister ends up testifying to it. Your parents already have.
Is being gay not a bad thing?  You say you were a minister. Were you a gay minister? Is that why they let you go?
You are right about one thing. John M didn't let you go because he didn't personally believe you...he did until he started investigating your claims so he could defend you in court. That's when it all hit the fan and he discovered one lie after another. No attorney wants to be made a fool of in court and since he found out you were not credible he wasn't about to take your case.

Question...will you pursue this even if Tommy dies?  The medical reports presented to the court recently say that he had a huge stroke with permanent damage.  Oh wait, of course you would still pursue as it is all about getting money that doesn't belong to you. After all didn't you threaten to sue your own dad at one time and then threaten to sue an employer that you thought discriminated against gays?  Neither of those threats came to fruition so you had to try another route. In these poor economic times a guy has to find some way to make a living!

[Murcielago]

As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way  ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler.

Are you saying he was gay when he was a toddler?

[Johann]

As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way  ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler.

Are you saying he was gay when he was a toddler?

Quite a question

[DARVO]

What a pathetic string of conversation.  The issue at hand is not Alex's sexual orientation.  Is it not the sexual molestation charges placed against TS?  SAM, you can beat Alex down until you take you last breath.  It will never change what happened -- at the hands of TS.

While pastoring at DL, TS made sexual advances against at least TWO grown men.  I think that made him a gay minister.

We shall wait until we see the acutal PROOF that TS has had a HUGE stroke.  Here in Virginia -- we want this finished so we can all move on.

[Bob Pickle]

I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.

What was the name of this allegedly biblically illiterate lawyer that would dare say that an earthly judge rejecting a plea deal makes Tommy's admission a moot point with the Judge of all the earth?

If you think I'm reading into the lawyer's alleged statement what he never said, take note that in many of our discussions here we view things from the eternal perspective, which brings in God. In that context, any lawyer (or Sam quoting a lawyer) who claims that an admission is as if it never happened when an earthly judge rejects a plea deal is in reality saying that God Himself will overlook an admission of guilt simply because of the decision of an earthly judge.

How far do you want to push such a heresy? If God is bound by an earthly judge's rejection of a plea deal, is He also bound by an earthly judge's condemnation of an innocent martyr?

In fact...why haven't you called his parents?

And how would you know that I haven't?

Regardless, Tommy still admitted to molesting Alex. Now if Tommy has publicly stated that he molested Alex, why would anyone need to inquire further?

[Bob Pickle]

What I say can be proven if your sister ends up testifying to it.

What are you saying here? That anything testified to under oath is automatically proven? So what if Alex testifies that Tommy abused him? Is that then automatically proven?

If testimony automatically proves something, why did 3ABN lose its property tax case after Danny gave so much testimony?

Your parents already have.

Really? When? Was it in open court? At a deposition? Some sort of ex parte proceeding? Do you have a transcript from a court reporter that you can post?

[JustWondering]

Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?

If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?

Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?

I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
(snip)

Sam says: "...a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept"

Let's refresh our memories on why the judge rejected guilty plea agreement.

Fairfax judge rejects plea deal for man who admitted molesting 2 boys
Washington Post Staff Writer, By Tom Jackman; Monday, November 15, 2010

A Fairfax County judge rejected a plea agreement Monday for a former Fairfax church pastor who admitted molesting two boys in the 1990s because the agreement would not have not put the pastor behind bars.

Tommy R. Shelton Jr., 65, pleaded guilty in July to two felony counts of taking indecent
liberties with a child under his supervision.
(snip)
Shelton's attorneys and Fairfax prosecutors agreed to a deal: If Shelton pleaded guilty, he would be placed on probation with no jail or prison time. When the deal was presented to Fairfax Circuit Court Judge Randy I. Bellows, he told both sides, "I may ultimately reject
this agreement."

Then, after reading a sentencing memo Monday from Shelton's attorneys, the judge - a former federal prosecutor in Alexandria - said: "There's no expression of remorse. This submission doesn't even acknowledge that he committed the offense. . . . I've got a plea to two very serious charges that involves no jail time. And on top of it, I've got a defendant that's expressing no remorse, and I've got victims that are willing to participate in the litigation. [Both victims were in court, and one testified Monday.] I'm trying to understand why I would accept this agreement."
(snip)

(bolding of text added)

Judge Bellows rejected the plea agreement because the punishment did not fit the crimes that TS admitted to committing.  There was no jail time and TS did not express ANY remorse.

Judge Bellows saw right through TS's selfish veil.  TS had multiple chances to express true remorse, but according to the judge he did not.  The judge read the sentencing memo submitted by the defense and expected remorse to be expressed, but only read about how hard this experience has been on TS.  The judge had the opportunity to watch TS that day in court and previous dates.  According to the WP article, the judge had the opportunity to watch TS during one of the victim's testimony that day and watch and listen to TS make a statement about how remorseful he was.  Even with all of the opportunities, Judge Bellows saw NO REMORSE.

Sam says: "So now is a moot point as if it never happened..."

Moot point, huh?  Moot point in an earthly court or a moot point according to God?

The judge rejecting the plea agreement did not cause the guilty plea to be withdrawn.  This is left up to the defendant.  After a judge rejects a plea agreement, a defendant has the choice to move forward and let the judge sentence him or her at that time.  Or withdraw the guilty plea and and let a jury decide.

Withdrawing a guilty plea does not mean that the defendant is saying that he or she is not guilty.  This only means that the guilty plea cannot be used by the prosecution and considered by the jury in the following trial.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Yes, Murcielago,

He is back now and in your back yard!!! But being watched very carefully!!! He is much more comfortable in the Southern California Conference!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Got any further info on that?

Actually, Rivera inadvertently exposed a real honest to goodness "Jesuit" graduated from Loyola in the Dominican that was working within the "independent" ministries of the 90's. Not only admitted it but got on a jet plane and went back from whence he came.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[DARVO]

Two postings made on two different Advent blog sites – posted same day:

“Truth”, posted July 11, 2011

“Well, what about what DARVO just posted over on AT? That Tommy supposedly made some kind of gay advances towards two men while a Pastor at Dunn Loring. Really? What kind of snotty dirty comment is that without any proof that this is true? It is SMEARING the character of Tommy Shelton, something Pickle and the rest have felt so free to do in the past several years. This is only one small example of the filth and lewdness that has come out of AdventTalk forum.

And DARVO says he was a Pastor at Dunn Loring? He is a great example of how Pastors should gossip and tell things about people on public forums to try to blacken their reputations? No wonder Americans are sick to death of Christianity in this country when their leaders talk and act this way.”

DARVO, posted, July 111, 2011

“What a pathetic string of conversation.  The issue at hand is not Alex's sexual orientation.  Is it not the sexual molestation charges placed against TS?  SAM, you can beat Alex down until you take you last breath.  It will never change what happened -- at the hands of TS.

While pastoring at DL, TS made sexual advances against at least TWO grown men.  I think that made him a gay minister.

We shall wait until we see the acutal PROOF that TS has had a HUGE stroke.  Here in Virginia -- we want this finished so we can all move on.”


Dear Truth,

I suspect you read into my posting what you wanted to see.  I will change the sentence structure so you can understand what was actually said.

“While Tommy Shelton was the Pastor at DL, he made sexual advances against at least TWO grown (adult) men.” 

The second sentence in that paragraph was a comment made in relation to the comments posted about Alex being a "gay" minister. 

For your information, two men came forward and reported the advances made toward them by TS.  One put it in writing and allowed his name to be made public.  One has asked to remain anonymous.

I am not a Pastor nor am I a "He".  I am a member of DL, have been for 18+ years.

I’ll leave it up to you to make the correction ****************.  You owe it to all that read your misleading comments to my posting. 

DARVO

**************

Edited to remove inappropriate content.

[Bob Pickle]

It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.

I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.

[Snoopy]

Two postings made on two different Advent blog sites – posted same day:

“Truth”, posted July 11, 2011

“Well, what about what DARVO just posted over on AT? That Tommy supposedly made some kind of gay advances towards two men while a Pastor at Dunn Loring. Really? What kind of snotty dirty comment is that without any proof that this is true? It is SMEARING the character of Tommy Shelton, something Pickle and the rest have felt so free to do in the past several years. This is only one small example of the filth and lewdness that has come out of AdventTalk forum.

And DARVO says he was a Pastor at Dunn Loring? He is a great example of how Pastors should gossip and tell things about people on public forums to try to blacken their reputations? No wonder Americans are sick to death of Christianity in this country when their leaders talk and act this way.”

DARVO, posted, July 111, 2011

“What a pathetic string of conversation.  The issue at hand is not Alex's sexual orientation.  Is it not the sexual molestation charges placed against TS?  SAM, you can beat Alex down until you take you last breath.  It will never change what happened -- at the hands of TS.

While pastoring at DL, TS made sexual advances against at least TWO grown men.  I think that made him a gay minister.

We shall wait until we see the acutal PROOF that TS has had a HUGE stroke.  Here in Virginia -- we want this finished so we can all move on.”


Dear Truth,

I suspect you read into my posting what you wanted to see.  I will change the sentence structure so you can understand what was actually said.

“While Tommy Shelton was the Pastor at DL, he made sexual advances against at least TWO grown (adult) men.” 

The second sentence in that paragraph was a comment made in relation to the comments posted about Alex being a "gay" minister. 

For your information, two men came forward and reported the advances made toward them by TS.  One put it in writing and allowed his name to be made public.  One has asked to remain anonymous.

I am not a Pastor nor am I a "He".  I am a member of DL, have been for 18+ years.

I’ll leave it up to you to make the correction ****************.  You owe it to all that read your misleading comments to my posting. 

DARVO

**************

Edited to remove inappropriate content.

Hi DARVO,

Just wanted to say that I agree with you and I am sorry you have had to experience the ugliness of the other site.

I am glad you have joined AdventTalk and I appreciate the perspective you bring to us.  I truly hope that their venom will not prevent you from continuing to share your thoughts here.  I also hope that the impression they leave with you will not be your lasting impression of the Adventist church.

Regardless of differing denominations, we all serve the same wonderful Lord, and He is still in control!!  He knows the truth - the REAL truth!!  And He can bring healing to those who have been so hurt.  It sounds like you may know some of those people.  I pray for healing for your church family.

Sincerely,

Snoopy