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[Jise]

I read Bill Knott's article at:  http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2011-1510&page=6

But it seems this kind of article allows for so-called "leaders" to rumour monger the laity -but yet does not hold the leaders or even the laity accountable within the Church.

Another QUestion - is the Adventist Church really of God in the structure of the Church?  The non-congregationalist Structure of the Church is anti-bibilical and does not mimic the governance structure of the early church.

Another issue is that the Adventist church posits itself as the remnant and bride of Christ - and the only church that fits this model - and this is actually anti-biblical - no where in the bible - does it say that the Adventist Church is the bride of Christ or the remnant.

Many of the Adventist Church's own leaders, particularly some of them in the Michigan conference are rumour mongerers - why is it that Bill KNott does not call these people out in his article?

[Jise]

Also, what is to explain the lack of church accountability for holding leaders or people calling themselves leaders accountable for errant behavior.

Is every allegation merely a rumour?  Why is it that BIll KNott seems to be arguing for a lack of Church discipline in his article and mere acceptance of any and all sorts omoral compromise - simply because the Adventist Church wants to allow ungodly people to continue in its fellowship, even as leaders.

[Bob Pickle]

I don't see Bill Knott arguing against church discipline at all. The examples of rumors he gives do not concern actual, real problems, or things that the rumor spreader first verified by speaking with the person supposedly at fault.

[Artiste]

Bill Knott--"The church has real difficulties enough that we dare not spend our energies distracted by the rumor-mongering that fastens on first one and then another church institution, leader, or pastor."

I feel that Editor Knott is hiding behind Ellen White quotes to distract his readers from things like the enormous problems that have come up with Adventist educational institutions accepting evolutionary theories and passing them along to the students. 

The Seventh-day Adventist church is not handling that situation any more effectively than they are the 3ABN situation.   

[Artiste]

Although I will have to say one thing for the liberal progressives in our church--at least they don't, for the most part, watch 3ABN!

[Bob Pickle]

Bill Knott--"The church has real difficulties enough that we dare not spend our energies distracted by the rumor-mongering that fastens on first one and then another church institution, leader, or pastor."

I feel that Editor Knott is hiding behind Ellen White quotes to distract his readers from things like the enormous problems that have come up with Adventist educational institutions accepting evolutionary theories and passing them along to the students. 

The Seventh-day Adventist church is not handling that situation any more effectively than they are the 3ABN situation.   

Did Knott write an article addressing the La Sierra situation? I seem to recall that he did, but I may be wrong.

"The church has real difficulties enough ...." Couldn't that refer to La Sierra and 3ABN?

[Artiste]

The evolutionary situation affects more schools than La Sierra.

[Artiste]

Knott's concern is the "millions yet unreached", and he would like us to ignore other things going on.

I remember that Ellen White said something to the effect that God didn't work to bring many people into the Adventist church because of the condition of the church.

[princessdi]

Well, now I think a better question is.......Jise......is ther a specific problem you have with the michigan Conference.  I mean you ahve been hinting(very loudly I might add) at your issues for a while.

Now, how, exactly do you perceive you or a loved ones was unfarily treated by the church, in particular the Michigan Conference?   

I'm going to give you an opportunity to vent. because you start out with some very good points, but they kind of get lost in your apparent anger with the church.  You can put it in PM if you like.   

[Bob Pickle]

At the bottom of http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=3227 is Knott responding to criticism of the Review's article on the LSU evolution controversy.

[Artiste]

Thank you, Bob.

"The news report also noted the activity of those criticizing the university’s science teaching: it neither aligned itself with those criticisms nor endorsed the manner in which they have made their criticisms public."

The above disclaimer by Bill Knott appears to distance the editorial side of the Review from the criticisms in the article which pointed out what was happening at La Sierra.

Bill Knott in this instance clearly does not side with upholding church beliefs on creationism.  I assume that this is because he does not want to deal with the criticism that accompanies this stance.  

Other institutions, Loma Linda, PUC, and Andrews coming to mind, also have widespread disbelief in a 6 day creation model.

I know this because of conversations with friends and acquaintances associated with a couple of these places (whose beliefs about this were different than mine) and there have been also some online reports of conversations.

[princessdi]

Disbelieving the 6-day creation in favor of what other belief?

[Jise]

Many "conservative" Adventists, including some in the Michigan Conference essentially believe that biblical and societal norms do not apply to them - they claim to be most moral and biblical even when many of them are some of the most immoral people around. They claim to be "conservative" because they don't believe in even basic human rights and decency for other ethnic groups.

I've been in the SDA Church and studied it.  From my interactions with Adventists who've been in the Church longer than I am - I knew that there was something really wrong with this Church even more so than even more traditional denominations, wherein the Adventists including Ted Wilson - claim are more wrong theologically than Adventism.

First, I've seen a so-called self-ascribed or wannabe "leader" in the Michigan Conferance, that has endorsed sexual fornication, defrauding, dishonesty, slander, and has engaged in slander himself for a situation for which he has no first hand knowledge.  The Bible as well as Ellen White condemn all manner of stealing, seeking to impose yourself on others through fraud - and cheating others through fraud - yet this Michigan conference person endorses these things - things I never found to be endorsed by believers in other denominations I've been affiliated with.

This person has also talked against "dancing" in the Church - in his bid to scandalize other people's cultures - he is really no different from other Adventist who were "pastors" that have been arrested for fomenting the Rwandan Genocide.

He is a false prophet and the bible speaks about how many will prefer the doctrines of demons and false prophets to what is actually written in the bible - and much of his doctrine is wrong - including his article specifically written about "dance".

First of all, he condemns drums because he alleges that it was never a part of the traditional worship of the early christians.

But what he forgets to mention is that God in the Bible endorses dance as a valid part of worship - and the early christians engaged in dance as part of their worship.  This buffoon in the Michigan Conference has criticized "criticism" of theology - merely expecting all to accept what he and others and EGW says as the Gospel - ignoring the fact that God does not want Believers to accept the doctrine of "demons" or false prophets - and specifically says let's come reason together.  One has to understand what one is believing in - and understand the biblical basis before one blindly accepts.

I've come to realize that the Adventist Church is simpy unbiblical in many realms.  I told one of my friends who had a little respect but not much for the SDA Church that the SDA Church allowed "abortions" in its hospital -and this was the last straw for my friend; my friend responded that the Adventists are "odious".

I wonder why the "conservatives" in the SDA Church don't decry abortions in their hospitals - is it because they are afraid of offending the bureacracy that employs them?

Another thing about the adventist Church - it appeals to those who seek and like "western" worldliness.

The non-congregational structure of the church is unbiblical in the sense that it does not mirror the governance structure of early christians.  Many of its "leaders" are very wordly and by their lifestyles it would seem that these leaders are wicked.

This leader I referenced above - I believe much of his theology is driven by the fact that he is "worldy" and envious of the fact that he has not been blessed to be as prosperous or as pure as others that he condemns.  His ministry is tribalist - driven.
If you research this man's records -it's so embarrassing - he took out about 100% financing on a mortgage for a house originally - that has dropped in value - he's approximately $60,000 underwater.

Also to tell you of the "worldliness" of the Adventist Church as evidenced by its non-congregational structure to support its massive bureacracy - did you know that the Adventist Church has a corporation that gives out mortgages - is this Godly or worldy?

Have you checked into the Vice Presidents at the GC to see if they are living a Godly or worldly 'lifestyle"?  I happened to learn from public records - and this is not a rumour -but verifiable - that this one vice president who hails from a conference wherein many of the members support all manner of immorality - took out about 100% financing for a house -t hat has dropped about $100,000 in value.

Was this smart?  Was it greedy?  Is this how we expect "our" leaders to live? Where is also the biblical support for supporting this kind of bureacracy wherein Leaders are taking out this much debt for a house that falls in value?  I almost think the SDA Church is so wicked - that as a structure it exists to fuel worldliness and to support salaries, and for making money off of mortgages and other money making schemes.

Is this kind of indebtedness of Vice presidents and other so-called "leaders" evidence that these people are 'wicked"? The bible seems to say so i. e. Deuteronomy 28

Additionally, where in the bible does it say that the SDA Church is the denomination that represents the ONly remnant or any part of the remnant?  Looks like the SDA Church is encouraging its Vice Presidents and other "leaders" to be "willing" "slaves" as defined in the bible as determined by their indebtedness.

The problem with Adventism - is that some of its adherants like this so-called Michigan conference self ascribed leaders - do not interact with others from a standpoint of good will, but ill will - and they seek to justify immoral behaviors with the bible.

They are motivated by envy and are divisive.

I've never met so much malice, insincerity and division until I came into the Adventist Church.  The adventist Church is characterized by malice and division because it is comprised of many individuals who are envious of others and driven by a religion of worldliness -

they talk and right books about how their "souls" can't be "bought" but yet they buy houses that they can't afford as is evidenced by the mortgages they take out and their willingness to become so indebted -and  which continue to drop in value.  Their main aim is to keep up with the Jones.  They demand that you should want to help them and others like them with "charity" - and this is what their ministry is focused on - yet at the same time, they are not shy about their ill will towards you or your community - and they evince little to no concern about the immediate community and country in which they reside and the poor and downtrodden in their adopted community and country other than talking "down" to these communities from a theological standpoint of "false doctrine".

[Artiste]

Disbelieving the 6-day creation in favor of what other belief?

Traditional evolution.

[Jise]

This Michigan "campus" leader would have you believe that victims of 411 Nigerian Scam artists tried to "bribe" the scam artists -

When I think of this "leader" - I'm reminded of the Adventist Pastors jailed for fomenting false doctrine and ethnic genocide.  With "conservatives" such as these -they are not bound by any societal or biblical norms of decency - they try and justify "rape", racism, stealing, fornication, dishonesty -

and they reach judgement without accountability.