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[Johann]

Is it the work of God or the work of man? How can you tell?

Some people claim there are three sides to every item, Your side, my side, and then the right side.

Then there are those who claim that I only get my information from one side. How do they know? How will they document that claim?

I have recently had close contact with a person who has been associated with Gospel Outreach, and he verifies all that I have said about Linda's adventures there. And still people claim that Linda must be my only source!

In recent months I have discussed this whole affair with a number of presidents and directors from various world divisions of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Many of them seem to be in a real dilemma.

Actually one leader summed it up like this several years back. The problem of the church is this: Many regard 3ABN as the image of the Church, and Danny Shelton is the head of this image. Although Church leaders realize that the accusations against Linda Shelton are false it seems necessary to sacrifice Linda on the altar of 3ABN's demands to avoid tarnishing the image of the Church. So the message was given to Linda from this corner: You need to be sacrificed to the unjustified demands to save  the image. . .

This was the message from one particular individual who yielded great authority at that time. The same individual made it known he had pleaded Linda's case and requested the Board of Directors to re-consider, but that was all in vain. So as a last resort he pleaded with Linda to let herself be sacrificed. My source for this is not Linda, but mostly that leader himself whom I have known for many years.

Just recently I have had talks with several other presidents and leaders about this matter, some of them former presidents and leaders. They still face similar problems. On one hand they have the image of the church, and on the other hand they still face the old problems they have had with what some of them designate as the self-appointed pope of Adventism, Danny Shelton.

One president said to me that it is impossible for him to express his own conviction because the supporters of 3ABN cry out so loud and would accuse him of heresy and it would split the church. He gave this as the reason why he keeps quiet, and you can then understand why I cannot say who he is. As our conversation came to a conclusion I could even hear the smile in his voice as he admonished me to keep on doing what I think is the best.

Some claim I should be stripped of my credentials, but they - as usual - have no idea what they are saying. I came to 3ABN back in 2003 because my credentials had already expired due to my advanced age. Back then I was 70.

3ABN has been instrumental in winning many souls, according to some statistics, although one of the departmental secretaries informs me that the statistics are not telling the truth. I did not notice 3ABN mentioned among the reasons the Seventh-day Adventist Church is today the only growing church in North America. 3ABN likes to claim they are the most important, and they might cling to that claim till their last breath.

The truth is that winning souls is the work of God, regardless of the claims of man. God does use various vehicles, and 3ABN is far from the only one. With a reformation it might still be a powerful fool in His hands

[Nosir Myzing]

Johann,


You are making claims here about what people have allegedly said, and then not identifying them as usual, so there is no way to verify what you claim, or to refute it. It never looks right to me because this is the same way liars spin their tales making unsubstantiated accusations, and unsupported claims about and from others. If you are telling the truth, and these people you are making claims about are ashamed or afraid to say the same things publicly or have their names used? Then imo, they shouldn't be saying it in the first place, and you shouldn't be repeating it as that is not how God calls us to work.  Imo, these type of posts do you no credit, or Linda either. They in fact further undermine any credibility you may have had with those who are doing God's work. I do not believe that your continued efforts to malign and discredit Danny Shelton and the 3ABN ministry and libel them will ever be seen by any of God's people as "God's work", as he has prescribed methods and principles we are to follow which don't resemble yours at all. Nor does posting the opinions of anonymous people change anything or really prove anything. Libel, slander, public accusations and faultfinding are not how God lead men to repent. Something to think about?

Johann asked:

Is it the work of God or the work of man? How can you tell?

then answered:

3ABN has been instrumental in winning many souls, according to some statistics, although one of the departmental secretaries informs me that the statistics are not telling the truth. I did not notice 3ABN mentioned among the reasons the Seventh-day Adventist Church is today the only growing church in North America. 3ABN likes to claim they are the most important, and they might cling to that claim till their last breath.

The truth is that winning souls is the work of God, regardless of the claims of man.[Johann] God does use various vehicles, and 3ABN is far from the only one. With a reformation it might still be a powerful fool in His hands

Yes, that is God's work. No, 3ABN has never claimed they are the most important. You say they say that- bearing false witness.

 It is time to stop beating 3ABN, and let them do their work. Let go, and let God, Johann. Let God decide who needs to reform and who doesn't. Let God lead in reformation when and if that is necessary. Let God choose his vehicle(s).

Acts 5
And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.... Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison....Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not...

.... and the apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them.

Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

[Johann]

I was just looking at an announcement of a book published in Denmark when reading Sir Myzing's musings. The book, written by a journalist is the story of a spin doctor and the title is "Uden for citat" meaning Outside of a Quotation - or Without a Quotation.

Many reporters have to live with that as much of their reporting has to be done without them supplying the source of their information. Reporting is not a court where you prove a point, but is meant to stir the thoughts of intelligent people to make an independent investigation and decide for themselves what is the truth.

[GRAT]

Johann - In the last line of your first post - was that what you meant to say or was it a "Freudian slip"?   

[Johann]

Johann - In the last line of your first post - was that what you meant to say or was it a "Freudian slip"?   

Depends on your perspective. . .

[Sister]

No Sir, My Zing:

Your "zings" fall on deaf ears... ears that are unwilling to believe the slander that has been heaped upon Johann for so many years by the minions of a false prophet. That sounds so dramatic, but since I am addressing a drama queen, I decided to answer in kind. When the truth about Danny Shelton becomes public to a larger audience, it will be an embarrassment to the SDA Church, but the church will overcome it. Danny was not the first or will he be the last "wolf in sheep's clothing" to bring embarrassment to the cause of God.

[princessdi]

Nosir Myzing,

You have got to be kidding me here!   This from the folks who got rid of Linda on less than this.  Seven, count them 7!! years later, no phone records, no airlines ticket receipts, no PI pictures produced in no court of law(remember, at BSDA they weren't posting their eveidence there, but saving it for court and a slam sunk divorce settlement, or lack thereof).  All if not most of the documents posted on BSDA and else where have been from the folks who here.  They may not have been right all of the time, but at least you had something(actually, more than i ever want to see again in life) to look at to make your own determination.  Danny only ask that we take his word.......yeah right!  Until you all produce any or all of these things they claim to have against Linda, you can keep the righteous indignation about unsubstantiated claims.

As far as Johann word is concerned about the response of the church leaders, it is extremely common to sacrifice the women(usually wife) for the sake of the pastor/leaders career and the image of the church...for "sake of the message".  It is a common practice. That is how we, like the RCC, transfer, philandering, thieving, child molesting pastors/leaders all over that place instead of solving their issues. Not to mention even giving some kind of support to their victims.

Johann,

You are making claims here about what people have allegedly said, and then not identifying them as usual, so there is no way to verify what you claim, or to refute it. It never looks right to me because this is the same way liars spin their tales making unsubstantiated accusations, and unsupported claims about and from others. If you are telling the truth, and these people you are making claims about are ashamed or afraid to say the same things publicly or have their names used? Then imo, they shouldn't be saying it in the first place, and you shouldn't be repeating it as that is not how God calls us to work.  Imo, these type of posts do you no credit, or Linda either. They in fact further undermine any credibility you may have had with those who are doing God's work. I do not believe that your continued efforts to malign and discredit Danny Shelton and the 3ABN ministry and libel them will ever be seen by any of God's people as "God's work", as he has prescribed methods and principles we are to follow which don't resemble yours at all. Nor does posting the opinions of anonymous people change anything or really prove anything. Libel, slander, public accusations and faultfinding are not how God lead men to repent. Something to think about?

[Nosir Myzing]

Nosir Myzing,

You have got to be kidding me here!   This from the folks who got rid of Linda on less than this.  Seven, count them 7!! years later, no phone records, no airlines ticket receipts, no PI pictures produced in no court of law(remember, at BSDA they weren't posting their eveidence there, but saving it for court and a slam sunk divorce settlement, or lack thereof)...  

You need to dial it back about 5 notches. I am sorry to interupt your delusions of grandeur, and your "it is common" attempts at rationalizing, but who are you, Pickle and Joy to claim these things don't exist simply because you didn't see them and they weren't posted on an internet forum? How would you know if they have, or have not been presented in Linda's property suit against Danny? You don't, that case is under seal. Those who's business it is will see them if required. Not you, Sister, Pickle, or Joy ect...

Those whose business it was, Churches, Boards, Ministries, Conference Presidents, and officials, saw it all and more to begin with, and yes, they got rid of Linda, or they confirmed the reasons of those who did. They will answer God, and you my dear, will answer to Him also for calling them all liars and second guessing their informed judgments and maligning them.

If Linda, or Johann, or Mundall thinks they have a case, let them sue them. The rest of you don't have a case, nor any defense for that matter...

[Johann]

Yes, Princess, those people seem to come from outer space where there is an eternal shadow. Yes, they quote us here, and do exactly like Barbara Kerr told me the other day they have done to her statements. They interpret everything according to their own dictionary and put a meaning into the words that is quite different from what is intended.

[Johann]

Those whose business it was, Churches, Boards, Ministries, Conference Presidents, and officials, saw it all and more to begin with, and yes, they got rid of Linda, or they confirmed the reasons of those who did. They will answer God, and you my dear, will answer to Him also for calling them all liars and second guessing their informed judgments and maligning them.

If Linda, or Johann, or Mundall thinks they have a case, let them sue them. The rest of you don't have a case, nor any defense for that matter...

You must be kidding, No Sir!

You are at liberty to make all kinds of undocumented claims based on sealed documents,  but you will grant nobody else that privilege? Are you really a person from "outer space"?

I have a good notion that at least two persons who knew the contents of your sealed documents are no longer members of that elite, and are neither as convinced as you seem to be what they really tell. Perhaps they saw another reality from within? 

[Johann]

Johann - In the last line of your first post - was that what you meant to say or was it a "Freudian slip"?   

To be more specific, some of our children have had problems distinguishing  f from t. Some others might have the same problem.

[Nosir Myzing]

You are confused again, or deliberately misunderstanding. I am not sure which, but it doesn't really matter. I am NOT "making undocumented claims on sealed documents", Johann. Here is what I will do. I am going to start a new thread entitled "Johann's tales". I will document anything I say or claim in that topic and I will cite and reference any quoted material so you and others can understand, and see how that works from now on.

Have a good evening.

Those whose business it was, Churches, Boards, Ministries, Conference Presidents, and officials, saw it all and more to begin with, and yes, they got rid of Linda, or they confirmed the reasons of those who did. They will answer God, and you my dear, will answer to Him also for calling them all liars and second guessing their informed judgments and maligning them.

If Linda, or Johann, or Mundall thinks they have a case, let them sue them. The rest of you don't have a case, nor any defense for that matter...

You must be kidding, No Sir!

You are at liberty to make all kinds of undocumented claims based on sealed documents,  but you will grant nobody else that privilege? Are you really a person from "outer space"?

I have a good notion that at least two persons who knew the contents of your sealed documents are no longer members of that elite, and are neither as convinced as you seem to be what they really tell. Perhaps they saw another reality from within? 

[princessdi]

I am nobody to know, but you kow I am only going by what I see, people's actions.  Do I or any other rational person believe that Danny would go to such lengths to not just divorce his wife of 20 years, but disgrace and destroy her, and hold back such evidence if he had it?  Please!  He talked about her like a dog every single time he a chance, while she was under that crazy gag order(Heard him myself(and I watched 3ABN enough to count on one hand).   All Danny had to say from the beginning that he would only discuss this in court, but seeing as Linda was under the gag order, it was he and the 3ABN board who brought this mess to the light, mistakenly thinking that if he put Linda's supposed business in the street, his would not go along with it.  Did not work out for him that way.

Anyway, not here to argue this mess, just really irritated at you all asking for such proof, yet you supply none yourselves.  Also, I know this post of yours was a deflection, and I answered you anyway.

Who are you anyway?  Don't want to know your name, you just seem like somebody wh was not around all the time.  Danny and his group is good at sending out "defenders" without the correct or not enough information, and there seems to be some gaps in  your knowledge of the subject.

You need to dial it back about 5 notches. I am sorry to interupt your delusions of grandeur, and your "it is common" attempts at rationalizing, but who are you, Pickle and Joy to claim these things don't exist simply because you didn't see them and they weren't posted on an internet forum? How would you know if they have, or have not been presented in Linda's property suit against Danny? You don't, that case is under seal. Those who's business it is will see them if required. Not you, Sister, Pickle, or Joy ect...

Those whose business it was, Churches, Boards, Ministries, Conference Presidents, and officials, saw it all and more to begin with, and yes, they got rid of Linda, or they confirmed the reasons of those who did. They will answer God, and you my dear, will answer to Him also for calling them all liars and second guessing their informed judgments and maligning them.

If Linda, or Johann, or Mundall thinks they have a case, let them sue them. The rest of you don't have a case, nor any defense for that matter...

[Johann]

Here is what I will do. I am going to start a new thread entitled "Johann's tales". I will document anything I say or claim in that topic and I will cite and reference any quoted material so you and others can understand, and see how that works from now on.

Have a good evening.

I salute you for your high ambition. I will count on you refraining from turning my words around to mean something else than what is intended.

[Gregory]

Those whose business it was, Churches, Boards, Ministries, Conference Presidents, and officials, saw it all and more to begin with, and yes, they got rid of Linda, or they confirmed the reasons of those who did. They will answer God, and you my dear, will answer to Him also for calling them all liars and second guessing their informed judgments and maligning them.

I have a real problem with the above statement.  It's implication is that Linda was convicetd by secret evidence taht is not open to review.   Such is against what is commonly thought to be the American way of life--evidence is presented in an objective court with full opportunity for the devendent and his/her defenders/representatives to review, evaulate and to challenge.  In that objective court, those who testify may be subject to criminal sanctions if they testify falselly, or doctor the evidence.

Satements such as the above, in my thinking, imply that LInda has been convicted behind the scenes, in secret, and without the opportunity for her defenders and representatives to challege the claimed evidence.

In my opinion, no one who has been given access to such secret evidence should allow such secret evidence to play a part in determining Linda's guilt.  No matter how damning the evidence is, without the opportuith to challenge, in my opinion, it should not be used to convict.

Some may say:  Well, if Linda will agree not to litigate in a court of law, we will show it to her and her defenders/representatives.  Sorry. In my opinion such is not fair.  If the secret evidence is challenged as "doctored,"  those who did such should face legal sanctions.

The one side has claimed a right to litigate against Pickle and Joy.  I do not have a problem with that claim.  The courts are a proper place to resolve some issues.  And, for those who defend the litigation against Pickle and Joy, in my opinion, they should defend the rights of Linda to litigate against those who have provided her with a legal basis to litigate.  IOW, Linda should have the same right to litigate as those who have litigated against PIckle and Joy.