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[Johann]

Just because evil powers use these electric currents does that mean they must not be used for good?

[christian]

So what I am hearing is this? Danny is evil thus the woman that he reported to be interested in marrying is evil wearing suductive clothing and using acupunture which is evil. If we keep this up if she wasnt planning to marry him she will be now. Back up a minute, we dont really know this lady she could be the sweetest lady you ever want to meet. And even if Danny is being control by evil spirits she could be used for his salvation. Come on folks lets lay off the lady we really dont know her and sometimes we have to be carefull, No, really all the time we have to be careful not to judge. Shoot the Adventist Hospitals use all kinds of stuff much much worse than acupuncture yet we definitly do not tell people not to go to the hospital. 

Just because evil powers use these electric currents does that mean they must not be used for good?

[amazinggrace]

The quote "We believe that illness is caused by interruptions in the flow of energy" is from Dr. Harel, an acupuncturist.  I don't believe this.  Again, acupuncture has nothing to do with the electrical currents in the nervous system.  It is based on the "mystical" [spiritualsim] chi, a pantheistic energy force that pagans believe instead of believing in a personal God. It is Satan's counterfeit to the truth.  Please do some research on this.

"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God?... To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them."  Isa. 8:19, 20

"No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, ad I do not want you to be participants with demons.  You cannot drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."  I Cor. 10:20,21

"What do righteousness and wickedness have in common?  Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?  What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?...... Therfore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.  Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."  2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17

The pagan religious beliefs of the chi and the yin and the yang are not neutral cultural traditions of the Chinese.  They are PANTHEISTIC, a demonic philosophy which totally negates the personal Godhood of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. 

There are no Ellen White quotes which in any way support acupuncture or anything close to that.  Read Evangelism pp. 602-609 and see if there is anything that would remotely support acupuncture or any other Oriental mystical healing practices.  She gives strong warnings spiritualistic healing practices. 

[Johann]

The quote "We believe that illness is caused by interruptions in the flow of energy" is from Dr. Harel, an acupuncturist.  I don't believe this.  Again, acupuncture has nothing to do with the electrical currents in the nervous system.  It is based on the "mystical" [spiritualsim] chi, a pantheistic energy force that pagans believe instead of believing in a personal God. It is Satan's counterfeit to the truth.  Please do some research on this.

Yes, you are right, up to a point. Acupunture had nothing to do with the electrical currents in the nerve systems to the knowledge of the ancient Chinese, so they explained it in terms their people could understand at that time. In prehistoric times what did they know about electricity? But how about today?

The term “acupuncture” is sometimes used to refer to insertion of needles at points other than traditional ones, or to applying an electric current to needles in acupuncture points.[4][5]  Acupuncture dates back to prehistoric times, with written records from the second century BCE.[6]  Different variations of acupuncture are practiced and taught throughout the world.[7] - Wikipedia

Some apply the electric current without the use of needles. So your statement that it has nothing to do with electric current is not true.

"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God?... To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them."  Isa. 8:19, 20

Here you presume something based on what?

"No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, ad I do not want you to be participants with demons.  You cannot drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."  I Cor. 10:20,21

What does this have to do with our discussion?

"What do righteousness and wickedness have in common?  Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?  What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?...... Therfore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.  Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."  2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17

In my country the pagan Vikings used herbs as medicine which they undoubtedly associated with their pagan beliefs. Am I therefore touching the unclean when I use some of the same herbs to relieve my cold sore?

The pagan religious beliefs of the chi and the yin and the yang are not neutral cultural traditions of the Chinese.  They are PANTHEISTIC, a demonic philosophy which totally negates the personal Godhood of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I could say similar things about my Viking ancestors. Quite a few of them even immigrated to North America. But even now I am learning what herbs they were using to heal their prostates. And medical exams show that some of what they did more than a thousand years ago was superior to what they do at Loma Linda today. Should I discard their methods because the Vikings did not believe in Jesus Christ?

There are no Ellen White quotes which in any way support acupuncture or anything close to that.  Read Evangelism pp. 602-609 and see if there is anything that would remotely support acupuncture or any other Oriental mystical healing practices.  She gives strong warnings spiritualistic healing practices.  

And you evaluate acupuncture because it is nowhere mentioned in the writings of Ellen White? Is that your criteria? Let me state that I have never been treated by acupuncture, nor do I have plans of recommending it to others.

What is my concern is that we use the right reasons to make our decisions.

Even if the ancient Chinese had no knowledge of electricity and applied their pagan terms to what they were doing, does not mean there is no electricity involved. And some physicians today are using electric currents to verify what could be wrong with a patient. They might even use the same nerves as used in acupuncture. We still have them in our bodies, the way God created us, don't we?

I have very little medical knowledge, but I have a notion there could be a similarity to the way hospitals are measuring your heart impulses with EKG machines? Would it prevent you from having a heart scan if you discovered some Chinese, Muslims, Hindus, or people of other persuations are connecting their use of the EKG to yang or yin or budda or what have you - and that they might have done this before hospitals in the Western World were using this equipment?

[amazinggrace]

The electrical (nervous) system in anatomy and referred to by Ellen White is NOT the same as the chi energy, meridians, and yin/yang in acupuncture.  Manuel Vasquez wrote: "Perhaps the best definition of the meridians and the collaterals is one that Will Baron (who has a certificate in acupressure) gave me during a personal interview.  'They are,' he said, ' a mystical [spiritualistic] energy system that allegedly co-exists with the anatomical nervous system.' " In other words, the meridians and the chi are supposed to exist in addition to the nervous system, not be the same as the nervous system.
 

I can use the sunshine, herbs and other gifts from God, whether pagans use them or not, because they originate from God and are true.  The belief that there exists a universal energy force called the "chi" that travels through the human body on "meridians" and involves the "yin/yang" (which involves the belief that good and evil do not exist) - this belief does not originate with God and is not true.  It originates with the devil and that is why I reject it.

[amazinggrace]

Johann, you quoted from Wikipedia about some acupuncturists applying electricity to their needles in acupuncture and then said that this shows that some apply the electric current without the use of needles, which is not what the article said. 

Then you said my statement about acupuncture having nothing to do with the electric current is not true.  I said that acupuncture has nothing to do with the electric currents in the nervous system of the body, not about acupuncturists using electricity in some of their needles.  What I said was true.

The only possible relationship with acupuncture and the true nervous system of the body is that the insertion of needles would irritate nerve endings, but this would have nothing to do with the cure of disease.

If anything, acupuncture would involve "Satan's electric currents" (Evangelism, p. 609), not the true electric currents of the nervous system. 

[princessdi]

Right, and let's not forget that the first problem was that "the woman"(I am not sure it was this woman) was black........LOL!!!

So what I am hearing is this? Danny is evil thus the woman that he reported to be interested in marrying is evil wearing suductive clothing and using acupunture which is evil. If we keep this up if she wasnt planning to marry him she will be now. Back up a minute, we dont really know this lady she could be the sweetest lady you ever want to meet. And even if Danny is being control by evil spirits she could be used for his salvation. Come on folks lets lay off the lady we really dont know her and sometimes we have to be carefull, No, really all the time we have to be careful not to judge. Shoot the Adventist Hospitals use all kinds of stuff much much worse than acupuncture yet we definitly do not tell people not to go to the hospital. 

Just because evil powers use these electric currents does that mean they must not be used for good?

[Adam]

I'd like to know who started this rumor? It appears from Cindy and Co. this is all lies?

[christian]

Uh, I aint trying to get nothing started but, she did say the berry being dark means "rotten". Now everyone knows that a dark berry doesn't mean rotten so exactly what is she saying? Its like saying a brown car means rusty. Tinka ain't as stupid as she plays sometimes, she knew (I believe) exactly what she was saying. Aka, the queen of England is define but the lovely Michelle Obama is trashy, even though Michelle ain't all wrinkled up and wearing 1000,00 dollar jewelry, still Tinka thinks she can't hold a candle to the queen, why? But Jaquelyn Kennedy is the most pretty ever but Michelle is like so ugly, why? I stand by my saying the darker the berry the sweeter the juice and their is nothing immoral about that saying. 

Tinka, I am sure you did not mean to infer that all black women are "rotten", and the darker the more "rotten" did you?  If not please rephrase so we can understand your point.  After all no matter the ethnicity of the woman is not the point, it is that it is Danny's 4th marriage.  So far there is nothing wrong that anyone knows of with the women herself. 

straight talk...the darker the berrie...(rotten)

[tinka]

It is amazing when one is so far gone that they do not understand "straight talk". There is no room in a Christians mind to waste --evil thoughts comparing "berries" to "humans" just so they can go into their "sexual slangs " and think it real cute. Then come up with all the justified garble of me trying to cover up a "slang of your evil thoughts" when they are yours and not mine. That is why I put it if few words "straight talk" English talk, one word meaning what the English dictionary means. Berry a fruit, not a human being. How stupid can one get? People that think and talk and act this way should not be in doubt where they are headed. But then --too ignorant to know any different of trash talk... and Christian your a trash talker and your character is defined and some on here not far behind as they lean which ever way the wind blows  and they never understand "straight talk" or they could understand the first time what people are posting instead of asking over and over.  Their mind is set, sealed and focused on one thing and never really listen to anyone else but their own sick conclusions usually ending up in "sexual conotations".I have never used slang talk, words of disgust, or swear my whole life. Never a word and people, and my children that know me can tell you that about me. It was never allowed from any family members. Not that they can state what I can away from the house. but that was the rules.  I can discern a persons ignorance immediately by the language and actions they use. So many of the post from different supposedly Adventist on here is most shocking to me and therefore my comments to exploit. But...probably most wasted time as unstableness seems to get worse and worse. I have many other faults but speech, racism, work ethics, are not my downfalls. Hmmm, could be comments made up front.....!! and probably because I am a very worry wort for all including my own sins that I try to search out daily.

[princessdi]

That is why I asked her what she meant, by letting her know how it sounded.  Everyone knows that ALL berries are not dark when they are rotten, and that some berries are just dark(blueberries, black berries) by nature. So the analogy used was weak at best.  This is why I pray constantly for people. 

Some things are just so deep seeded they are hard to see within ourselves.  This applies both to racism itself and for those who have been scarred by it.  One doesn't realize how racist their statements( even they themselves)are, and the second looks for racism, sometimes where it doesn't exist.  I don't want to fall into the second category, because I have also lived in mixed or predominently white neighborhoods being raised middle/upper middle class and just feel it is counter productive.  I(and you) know it when I see it(no matter how subtle), but I also know it is not always intentional, or I just give the person the benefit of the doubt.  As I did with Tinka, I repeated what she she said as it was heard, and she basically tried her best to recant it. well it ended up more like an explanation of why she said it.  That thing is now between her and God.  Conviction and conversion as the work of the Holy Spirit. 

At the end of the day, my relationship with God requires that I see and love ALL as my brothers and sisters in Christ, You know that thing is not about faith with people we like....right? 

Uh, I aint trying to get nothing started but, she did say the berry being dark means "rotten". Now everyone knows that a dark berry doesn't mean rotten so exactly what is she saying? Its like saying a brown car means rusty. Tinka ain't as stupid as she plays sometimes, she knew (I believe) exactly what she was saying. Aka, the queen of England is define but the lovely Michelle Obama is trashy, even though Michelle ain't all wrinkled up and wearing 1000,00 dollar jewelry, still Tinka thinks she can't hold a candle to the queen, why? But Jaquelyn Kennedy is the most pretty ever but Michelle is like so ugly, why? I stand by my saying the darker the berry the sweeter the juice and their is nothing immoral about that saying. 

Tinka, I am sure you did not mean to infer that all black women are "rotten", and the darker the more "rotten" did you?  If not please rephrase so we can understand your point.  After all no matter the ethnicity of the woman is not the point, it is that it is Danny's 4th marriage.  So far there is nothing wrong that anyone knows of with the women herself. 

straight talk...the darker the berrie...(rotten)

[tinka]

That is why I asked her what she meant, by letting her know how it sounded. (Why would you have to ask me what I meant when I was very simply using English language counteracting "trash talk" used by Christian that basically all stood up for because lack of trained English wording to someone that reads very carefully for correct understanding. I knew Christian was doing trash talk)  Everyone knows that ALL berries are not dark when they are rotten, and that some berries are just dark(blueberries, black berries) by nature. (Now you got it here --as dark can be any color after the vibrant peak of use  while not comparing it to humans. Tell me- have you ever tasted too old of berries? I have. but you still continue your mind in gutter by comparing berries to humans simply because Christian first came up with the obnoxious post and you all went with it instead of letting the "counteraction" "straight talk" of trash talk settle in)  I should not have had to explain that) So the analogy used was weak at best. No, it is not weak only to your lack of understanding (Your prayer should take you away from surmising other peoples thoughts. while trash talk is used to accuse others what Christian first stated. My mind does not think in trash talk)
Some things are just so deep seeded they are hard to see within ourselves. (You can state that again for yourself.)   This applies both to racism itself and for those who have been scarred by it.  One doesn't realize how racist their statements ( even they themselves)are, and the second looks for racism, sometimes where it doesn't exist.  I don't want to fall into the second category, because I have also lived in mixed or predominently white neighborhoods being raised middle/upper middle class and just feel it is counter productive.  I(and you) know it when I see it(no matter how subtle), but I also know it is not always intentional, or I just give the person the benefit of the doubt. (No, you did not give me the benefit of the doubt as you immediately used your "trash thoughts" like Christian has --to not even begin to understand my counter action to his obnoxious post. You should have had the same feelings when Christian posted what he posted but no it was instant racism, and surmising my thoughts were like the both of you) As I did with Tinka, I repeated what she she said as it was heard, (you should not have been listening to your thoughts but reading what my counteraction of trash talk was) and she basically tried her best to recant it. (Now there is more surmising again wouldn't you say cause my exact post was to counter act the "sexual connotations used to compare berries with humans to suit ones obnoxious thoughts) well it ended up more like an explanation of why she said it.  That thing is now between her and God. (Yes it is and he knows beyond doubt that I took great offense to posters evil comparisons for the juice of the berry to human sex and others lack of intelligent use of English.)   Conviction and conversion as the work of the Holy Spirit.  

At the end of the day, my relationship with God requires that I see and love ALL as my brothers and sisters in Christ, You know that thing is not about faith with people we like....right?  You need to read and study more instead of , games. You know it takes more time to post in the manner of off the wall language then just to use what we were taught in school. and I know you went just like I did. So why go into the difference? You are the same American as me.

Uh, I aint trying to get nothing started ( you always start it with your trash talk) but, she did say the berry being dark means "rotten". ( Try a few dark strawberries and get educated.  Now everyone knows that a dark berry doesn't mean rotten so exactly what is she saying? (You need education in nature)Its like saying a brown car means rusty. (How stupid is this talk)Tinka ain't as stupid as she plays sometimes, she knew (I believe) exactly what she was saying. Yes, I knew exactly to counteract your trash talk) Aka, the queen of England is define but the lovely Michelle Obama is trashy, ( laugh you must have caught the Walmart scene) even though Michelle ain't all wrinkled up (has nothing to do with wrinkles, it has to do with morals as least to public view) and wearing 1000,00 dollar jewelry, still Tinka thinks she can't hold a candle to the queen, why? (cause it takes class and not style and her style is humerus and I think her stylest has pulled one on her and she just don't get it or she would not be the talk of the town in laughter each time of appearing) But Jaquelyn Kennedy is the most pretty ever but Michelle is like so ugly, why? ( don't think you could have gotten Jackie K. into the peacock bow on the back end.  I stand by my saying the darker the berry the sweeter the juice and their is nothing immoral about that saying. ( The darker the strawberry the moldier it is and that is a fact of English language and natural ending of a strawberry. and that is plain enough for anyone! and I just don't see to use this analogy with human women but a disgusting place of evil minded people.)  THUS, the darker the berry....rotten(STRAIGHT TALK) or just plain english words to get the attention of not using sexual of humans to berries and it went straight over your heads into surmizing evil of postings from Christian...the christian now that is a  .

Tinka, I am sure you did not mean to infer that all black women are "rotten", and the darker the more "rotten" did you?  If not please rephrase so we can understand your point.  After all no matter the ethnicity of the woman is not the point, it is that it is Danny's 4th marriage.  So far there is nothing wrong that anyone knows of with the women herself.  

straight talk...the darker the berrie...(rotten)

[childoftheking]

I try not to be political. However Tinka's opinion what she thinks others think of the first lady has kind of gone unchallenged. Might I say that I see nothing wrong with Michelle Obama's style or deportment. She might be a little informal and she seems not to be so impressed by pomp and ceremony but that is her right and her style (I believe that the root work of pompous is pomp is it not?). That is not her thing and she seems to me to be a breath of fresh air. She seems very genuine and I admire that. I also admire the way she has shielded her daughters from publicity.

[GRAT]

Oh My My Tinka - I was educated in American Schools, after 3rd grade all Adventist, and I have never heard the English language used in the way you write.  Sometimes I have to read what you say two or three times and still don't get what you are trying to say.  And I am not stupid!!  One of the problems with communicating this way is that you can't see the other persons face.  Face to face give you a lot of clues as to what the other person means, is it serious or a joke ect.  You may not realize it but you come across, to me at least, as judgmental and like you have a direct line to the Holy Spirit as to what is right and wrong because you have read all of Mrs. Whites writings.  A person can not have a conversation of give and take with someone like that.
  AS to Mrs. Obama, have you never had a picture of yourself taken that you wished you could destroy?  Are you sure that that "@Walmart" picture has not been photo-shopped?   I am not a big fan of our President but have always thought of Michelle as a very classy lady.  So she doesn't dress like you, is that a crime against humanity? 

[tinka]

  Grat You are so right! In school English was my favorite subject and always made A's and the harder it was the better I liked it. It has ended up that I weigh each word as I read but the strangest thing happening is because I think I have typed for so many years that I know exactly what is happening to me as I type many times faster keeping up with thoughts. OLD AGE SETTING IN. Also my spelling is going terrible as I am resorting back to spelling in just phonics or how it sounds and many times have to go to dictionary now when I want to write something legal or where it matters. When I find the correct spelling it just don't seem right at times but it is. I know you won't believe this either but I have actually edited. Seems I have no problem reading but when I go to type I discover many phrases are put in backwards from verbs to nouns or nouns to verbs. So I acknowledge everything your saying. I am hitting the delete botton now more then the words get typed. So maybe I should just quit looking at Advent Talk.  It is my only outside links for sometime now but quickly I see much failing me maybe cause so much stress but....your right and I still I believe that my reading is ok yet but still can't believe some of the junk or sagas that take place and trash talk that comes on here. Oh well, I still hope to be renewed...someday. and trauma and stress are very great in my life right now. I am hanging on to the promises as it is every bit all I have left.