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This statement is true and I know of specific examples of conservatives being guilty of this in the SDA Church

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Total Members Voted: 2

[christian]

Let me try and make myself clearer, if that is possible (smile). What I am saying is that most, but not all, or a great deal of the music sang today is for emotional reasons, to quiet the savage beast. Music is used as a pick me up or an excuse to justify a bad situation or make one seem like everything will be okay when in fact it will not be. Ellen G White did not give the warning through the vision she saw of them playing the drums etc... because she did not like music with drums. I believe she gave the warning because she saw false worship and was warning against it (some attridbuted the music to the working of the Holy Spirit). I have been very much a part of the music seen and I can tell you of a certainty that music sets the stage and controls the emotions. Now music can be a part of worship but in and of itself it is not worship.

And the problem is that there are extremes on both sides of the isle. Some hyms and the way they sing them are so dead as to be destructive to the atmospher of praise. On the other hand some praise music white and black is so wordly and bent on a emotional response via instruments and rythm as to be totally reality altering. So the happy medium is to make sure that the music is of such a place and the musicians of such that it is design for God and God alone. The greatest danger is when the wordly is mixed with the spiritual leaving the person confused between a love song and being in love with God. Both have a driving force (worldy and spiritual) but the problem is great care must be taken in keeping them separate. I love gospel music and I love certain hyms but I can tell you that certain songs are design to elicite emotional responses not bring praise or worship to God.

First of all, I want to ask the admins if these posts regarding music/worship should be moved, and I apologize for my part in hijacking the thread.

Ok so Christian " some great event".  You are right usually something on the line of deliverance or victory in battles, etc.  Correct.  However isn't that also what happens on an individual basis.  When are we not praising and worshipping God, if it is not on the edge or the heels of some great victory, deliverance, and/or event in our lives.  These days, should we not consider even waking up in the morning one of those great events, or even victories.  Not to mention even making it to the next Sabbath, month, year.  There is also something that is very foreign to SDAs, and that is people do praise and worship God because He has blessed them , delivered, them "in spite" of themselves, in spite of their sins, their unfaithfulness, their failings.  That is HUGE for some, because they realize very well how undeserving they are. 

Who said we had to be at a certain point of "perfection" or "righteousness" before we praise and worship God?  How perfect were the COI, once they crossed the Red Sea?  We know they had many, many more challenges after that.  how perfect was David?  He had some serious issues with women and just transferring that "great warrior king"/leader image to his family. Then who, on earth, makes that determination?  Because now we are attempting to judge the heart and/or intentions by the "outward appearance".  God has already said in the New and Old Testaments that man cannot do this, but that it is He that makes the determination, because He only can see the heart and know the intentions.

So, we must be careful that we don't get into the dangerous position of requriing more than God of a person, or persons other than ourselves.  Who dtermines the unconverted heart?
                                         

[Jise]

The one SDA Conservative "leader" who I'm talking about -when he started advocating "conservatism" to peddle particular moral compromises and stereotypes about particular ethnic groups, I noticed at this precise time, that the value of his house plummeted by over $100,000 -in a single year according to land records in 2009
In my view, I wonder if leaders such as this are really "credible", when they are in the position that they are borrowers who forseeably will not be able to repay.  For example, if you are in your 50s, and your house has plummeted by this much - you be paying well into your 70s especially, if the mortgage to begin with was above your means.
When I see this sort of thing happening, and yet the SDA Leader has been reknown for "peddling" moral compromise and has been fixated on rubbishing "progressivism" and defending exploitation of others, including women - then this is indicative to me that he is in so much debt because he's evil, as the bible says that the evil will borrow and never repay.  Funny that these said leaders want to appear self righteous vis a vis "progressives" such as myself - but I'm not in the predicament he is in.  I think we really need to look at the predicament America is in - the American dream is in - in terms of whether or not God is finally judging this country for the excesses of its conservatism.

[princessdi]

You are clear, Christian, but what you are doing is making a judgement on the intent and response to most of music sang today.

What is wrong with an emotional response to God through music?  Who is not moved(some expressions more demonstrative that others) when music, spoken word, or prayer reminds them of Who God is in their lives? Is that not part of the ministry of music during services, to prepare the congregations hearts for the preached/spoken Word?  Granted, that emotional response should be followed up by some solid life changing decisions and actions, but exactly when is this decision for a relationship with God made through pure logic?  When is it not compromised of a wide range of emotions.....guilt, shame, grief?

BTW, I have been meaning to ask you. Weren't you at BSDA, and if yes, what was your ID there?  You sound very familiar.  Like we have had this discussion before.    

Let me try and make myself clearer, if that is possible (smile). What I am saying is that most, but not all, or a great deal of the music sang today is for emotional reasons, to quiet the savage beast. Music is used as a pick me up or an excuse to justify a bad situation or make one seem like everything will be okay when in fact it will not be. Ellen G White did not give the warning through the vision she saw of them playing the drums etc... because she did not like music with drums. I believe she gave the warning because she saw false worship and was warning against it (some attridbuted the music to the working of the Holy Spirit). I have been very much a part of the music seen and I can tell you of a certainty that music sets the stage and controls the emotions. Now music can be a part of worship but in and of itself it is not worship.

And the problem is that there are extremes on both sides of the isle. Some hyms and the way they sing them are so dead as to be destructive to the atmospher of praise. On the other hand some praise music white and black is so wordly and bent on a emotional response via instruments and rythm as to be totally reality altering. So the happy medium is to make sure that the music is of such a place and the musicians of such that it is design for God and God alone. The greatest danger is when the wordly is mixed with the spiritual leaving the person confused between a love song and being in love with God. Both have a driving force (worldy and spiritual) but the problem is great care must be taken in keeping them separate. I love gospel music and I love certain hyms but I can tell you that certain songs are design to elicite emotional responses not bring praise or worship to God.                                         

[Jise]

My 2 cents for the day -
From Ted Wilson's inaugural speech mocking "emotional worship" - I wonder if he feels that this is more a threat to the church than these kind of scenarios as exhibited in the link http://www.adherents.com/people/pn/Elizaphan_Ntakirutimana.html

which the Adventist church has had a number of pastors involved in.

I wonder if Pastor Ntakirutimana was "conservative"?

[christian]

Yes, I was some years back, but I don't even remember what my name was. I was on a number of sites, Maritime, and about four others of which I don't remember my names there either (smile). -----And I am not judging,the things I am saying I have experienced first hand. It is like when Israel was in apostacy and the prophets would try and call them back, until they understiood their condition it was impossible for restoration. Why do you think the Prophet relayed her dream about the things happening in Indiana?Obviously, she was addressing a situation that she was, through the Holy Spirit, allowed to see to warn people of the coming false worship. And then she would go on to contrast the difference in false worship and true. "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spiri." You know if you look into Baal worship you will find that a great deal of their worship was perfomed through emotional gestures. But when you read the Bible whether it is Elisha fleeing from God or the confrontation with baal worshipers on the mount God always showed up in the stillness and quietness and in gentleness.

Princess, I am not against you in any way or form. I think you will notice that I have said that both sides often take an extreme position making both wrong. Some call all Gospel music wrong and others want to do away with the Hymnal completely. But what I am trying to say is the we must find the position that is exceptable to God and brings people to him and does not mix the worldly with the spirittual. And we must above all as Chritians not allow music to separate us from or neighbor or from God.

You are clear, Christian, but what you are doing is making a judgement on the intent and response to most of music sang today.

What is wrong with an emotional response to God through music?  Who is not moved(some expressions more demonstrative that others) when music, spoken word, or prayer reminds them of Who God is in their lives? Is that not part of the ministry of music during services, to prepare the congregations hearts for the preached/spoken Word?  Granted, that emotional response should be followed up by some solid life changing decisions and actions, but exactly when is this decision for a relationship with God made through pure logic?  When is it not compromised of a wide range of emotions.....guilt, shame, grief?

BTW, I have been meaning to ask you. Weren't you at BSDA, and if yes, what was your ID there?  You sound very familiar.  Like we have had this discussion before.    

Let me try and make myself clearer, if that is possible (smile). What I am saying is that most, but not all, or a great deal of the music sang today is for emotional reasons, to quiet the savage beast. Music is used as a pick me up or an excuse to justify a bad situation or make one seem like everything will be okay when in fact it will not be. Ellen G White did not give the warning through the vision she saw of them playing the drums etc... because she did not like music with drums. I believe she gave the warning because she saw false worship and was warning against it (some attridbuted the music to the working of the Holy Spirit). I have been very much a part of the music seen and I can tell you of a certainty that music sets the stage and controls the emotions. Now music can be a part of worship but in and of itself it is not worship.

And the problem is that there are extremes on both sides of the isle. Some hyms and the way they sing them are so dead as to be destructive to the atmospher of praise. On the other hand some praise music white and black is so wordly and bent on a emotional response via instruments and rythm as to be totally reality altering. So the happy medium is to make sure that the music is of such a place and the musicians of such that it is design for God and God alone. The greatest danger is when the wordly is mixed with the spiritual leaving the person confused between a love song and being in love with God. Both have a driving force (worldy and spiritual) but the problem is great care must be taken in keeping them separate. I love gospel music and I love certain hyms but I can tell you that certain songs are design to elicite emotional responses not bring praise or worship to God.                                         

[Jise]

My 2 cents:

According to this article, churches such as the SDA Church have not shown any remorse or apology in their role of fueling division among peoples and fostering genocide.  This is what I 'm talking about with respect to GC President Ted Wilson's inaugural speech - he did not do this in my opinion, - and in fact what he did speak out against in terms of music - has me wondering if his speech is an instrument designed to further fuel division amoung people. The article below notes how - several adventist "pastors" were implicated in the Rwandan genocide and fueled divisions among people
http://www.hirondellenews.com/content/view/7376/79/

In a 2008, statement, the General Conference denied that a rebel leader Nkunda, who news reports stated was implicated in genocides and affiliated himself with the SDA church - was not a representation of adventist lifestyle and values.  But the last time I've counted, there have been at least 6 Adventist Pastors who've gone to jail for being involved in the Rwandan genocide - these were "conservative" pastors.  Is fueling division, and a sociopathy a modus operandi that "leaders" fail to speak out against or not apologize for?

[princessdi]

EGW's statement notwithstanding...........what the Bible says pleases God is worship that is submitted with a contrite heart, a humble spirit, etc.  It doesn't say what "actions" just the condition of one's relationship with God.

I know that most will say that EGW's statement stands on it's on and is clear, but I submit that there is more it.  Especially when in the Bible trums were used, tambourines dancing and shouting(Miriam leading the COI after crossing the Red Sea), David's dancing before the Ark.  NONE of these displeased God.  He did not chastise anyone for what form their praise took, but when theyir heart was not right.  Once again, we need to be careful about requiring more than God.  EGW wrote about a specific situation, and then gives very sketchy details about what happens.  Does she address the motives of the people?  This seems very contrary especially when Sis. white was know to shout and clap her hands, pass out when in "vision", or in communication with God.  Do we want to believe that God doesn't communicate with anyone in this manner, That EGW was that special? Christian, you aked me to a debate, and I know we are debating emotional response, but for me this is.....a debate.  We will still be friends when we agree to disagree on this one point to go on to agree on something else, right?  ?

Yes, I was some years back, but I don't even remember what my name was. I was on a number of sites, Maritime, and about four others of which I don't remember my names there either (smile). -----And I am not judging,the things I am saying I have experienced first hand. It is like when Israel was in apostacy and the prophets would try and call them back, until they understiood their condition it was impossible for restoration. Why do you think the Prophet relayed her dream about the things happening in Indiana?Obviously, she was addressing a situation that she was, through the Holy Spirit, allowed to see to warn people of the coming false worship. And then she would go on to contrast the difference in false worship and true. "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spiri." You know if you look into Baal worship you will find that a great deal of their worship was perfomed through emotional gestures. But when you read the Bible whether it is Elisha fleeing from God or the confrontation with baal worshipers on the mount God always showed up in the stillness and quietness and in gentleness.

Princess, I am not against you in any way or form. I think you will notice that I have said that both sides often take an extreme position making both wrong. Some call all Gospel music wrong and others want to do away with the Hymnal completely. But what I am trying to say is the we must find the position that is exceptable to God and brings people to him and does not mix the worldly with the spirittual. And we must above all as Chritians not allow music to separate us from or neighbor or from God.




[

[mrst53]

Guys,
I didn't mean to cause an uproar when I asked about Ted's ethicity(sp). Since I am not SDA, I had no idea whether he was black,white, Asian or purple with pink polka dots. From your posts, most of you did not appear to like him or what he what he was doing for the SDA church. Sorry for the ruckus....
mrst

[christined]

Here is one person who does like Ted Wilson and what he stands for.  I have many friends who do not read or comment on this forum who also appreciate his stand on many issues.  for him.   

[Johann]

What has been discussed here concerns the structure of The Seventh-day Adventist Church. Do we have a clear picture of how our Church functions? We do have a General Conference with a President, he may have strong convictions and express them in his talks and in his writings. Some president might excert more authority than others, but Ted Wilson has very little to say where you and I are located. There are eight other presidents, one for each Division of the General Conference. There is also a new President of the North American Division of the General Conference. Depending on how he rules he might have much more to say about the work of the Church in North America than the President of the General Conference.

But in some of these Divisions the Union Presidents make their own decision more suitable to the local ares. Then there are also some Conference Presidents who make their own decisions. And in some areas each local church make their own rules quite independent of the wishes of their Conference  President.

So all this talk about the rulership of Ted Wilson seems kind of far fetched and seems done by those who do not consider how our World Church functions.

Yes, there seems to be a change with Ted Wilson, but I feel it is too early to draw a conclusion how it will turn out. Jan Paulsen - a Norwegian - seemed to rule through his Vice Presdents and associates. It seemed like he let them make their own decisions, each in their own area of resposibility with GC institutions, property and finances. It is possible that Ted Wilson will attempt to make more personal decisions, when he gets away with it. Most probably he will not get away with it in the long run unless he negotiates with other leaders. Even if he expresses his desires in strong speeches, other presidents on different levels might still have to make their own decisions to fit the local conditions.

Jan Paulsen made it quite clear in a TV program some time before he left office. He stated that changes do not come through the General Conference but they take place in the local church. It is the local church which decides how they will tackle race and cultural issues. So, start with your local church.

[princessdi]

Gurl, I don't know him enough to like him or not.  I just know he is caucasian as all other GC Presidents before him and pretty far to the right.  As Johann says, his words mean very little to the rank and file, there are many layers between us and him.

Guys,
I didn't mean to cause an uproar when I asked about Ted's ethicity(sp). Since I am not SDA, I had no idea whether he was black,white, Asian or purple with pink polka dots. From your posts, most of you did not appear to like him or what he what he was doing for the SDA church. Sorry for the ruckus....
mrst

[christian]

Princess, of course absolutley. the argument is never more valuable or loved than the individual you are debating with (smile). Plus I find you to be a most sincere person. I also think that our positions are not as far apart as you might think. I simply over the years being a musician and singer know the difference between generated emotions for the most part, and situational emotional responses. Having said that I am not implying that all emotional responses are not real. What I am saying is that I can take music and make you have an emotional response based on the rythmatics of the music. And I can also blend physical love songs with spiritual love songs and have you totally fooled as to your emotions. Once again it is the choir director that for the most part keeps us apart and many out of heaven. Would there were no music at all and we (black and white) worshiped together than what we have today that keeps us apart and at war with each other,

EGW's statement notwithstanding...........what the Bible says pleases God is worship that is submitted with a contrite heart, a humble spirit, etc.  It doesn't say what "actions" just the condition of one's relationship with God.

I know that most will say that EGW's statement stands on it's on and is clear, but I submit that there is more it.  Especially when in the Bible trums were used, tambourines dancing and shouting(Miriam leading the COI after crossing the Red Sea), David's dancing before the Ark.  NONE of these displeased God.  He did not chastise anyone for what form their praise took, but when theyir heart was not right.  Once again, we need to be careful about requiring more than God.  EGW wrote about a specific situation, and then gives very sketchy details about what happens.  Does she address the motives of the people?  This seems very contrary especially when Sis. white was know to shout and clap her hands, pass out when in "vision", or in communication with God.  Do we want to believe that God doesn't communicate with anyone in this manner, That EGW was that special? Christian, you aked me to a debate, and I know we are debating emotional response, but for me this is.....a debate.  We will still be friends when we agree to disagree on this one point to go on to agree on something else, right?  ?

Yes, I was some years back, but I don't even remember what my name was. I was on a number of sites, Maritime, and about four others of which I don't remember my names there either (smile). -----And I am not judging,the things I am saying I have experienced first hand. It is like when Israel was in apostacy and the prophets would try and call them back, until they understiood their condition it was impossible for restoration. Why do you think the Prophet relayed her dream about the things happening in Indiana?Obviously, she was addressing a situation that she was, through the Holy Spirit, allowed to see to warn people of the coming false worship. And then she would go on to contrast the difference in false worship and true. "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spiri." You know if you look into Baal worship you will find that a great deal of their worship was perfomed through emotional gestures. But when you read the Bible whether it is Elisha fleeing from God or the confrontation with baal worshipers on the mount God always showed up in the stillness and quietness and in gentleness.

Princess, I am not against you in any way or form. I think you will notice that I have said that both sides often take an extreme position making both wrong. Some call all Gospel music wrong and others want to do away with the Hymnal completely. But what I am trying to say is the we must find the position that is exceptable to God and brings people to him and does not mix the worldly with the spirittual. And we must above all as Chritians not allow music to separate us from or neighbor or from God.




[

[Jise]

The Truth of the matter is that people use "conservatism" to mean morality and posit "liberalism" aas being immoral -and they use the label to describe some of their societies as "conservatism"  - but is this so?  Many of the people who call themselves "conservative" are really quite permissive and immoral and actually cling to conservatism because of their "conservative" and immoral ideas about specific races of people - these people believe often times in  racial injustice, lynchings of particular races, etc., fornication, etc.  - "conservatism" has not meant that these people adhere to the 10 commandments any more than the next guy/girl.  In fact, some of the societies claiming to be "conservative" - and who claim to hold the monopoly on opposition to "homosexuality" - actually condone and celebrate heterosexual fornication and as a result - are plagued by a high preponderance of HIV/AIDS which is contracted through such.  There seems to be a bid to posit anyone who supports Liberal politics in the form of racial justice for example - as permissive.  But I have found that  some of the "conservative" persons who claim to be moral, support all manner of moral compromise, dishonesty, racial injustice and social injustice, as well as promiscuity. 

[mrst53]

I guess my definition of being a conservative is different from lots of others.. Mine is simply - What would Jesus do?  How much more simple  and conservative is that?

[Jise]

My 2 cents for today - then I have to get back to what I've been doing.  Some of the Church's conservatives - including those hired for "campus" ministries - are some of the most morally compromised of all - they want to focus in on the "worship" styles affiliated with a few ethnic groups - but don't want to at all criticize harmful cultural practices of other groups - and yet hold their own "pet groups" up as examples for the church - when this is not per se the case.

What has become clear to me - is that some of these conservatives with Ted Wilson included are really concerned with nationalism and race - more so - than they are with advocating for a real and sincere christianity.

Allegiances and alliances are formed around nation and race - rather than what is right or correct.

What Ted Wilson seems to not realize in my opinion, is that you don't have to be Adventist - and you can be Christian - and be honest, sincere, pure,etc. -and that you can be a conservative adventist - and yet support debauchery, exploitation, dishonesty, etc.

In my opinion, Ted Wilson's inaugural speech indicates that he wants to attack "ethnic groups" and malign their christianity, even when he knows next to nothing about the substance of these groups' christianity other than their musical worship is different than others.

Something is wrong when you have conservative leaders applauding SDAs who are engaged in womanizing, exploiting others, dishonesty, etc.  In my opinion, Ted Wilson is terming what is right - as "wrong" and what is "wrong" as right - in some of his speeches.