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This statement is true and I know of specific examples of conservatives being guilty of this in the SDA Church

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Total Members Voted: 2

[Murcielago]

The Congregationalist, Huguenots, Dutch Reformed and other churches once used the Bible to prove that the white members of their congregations were the only true recipients of God's promise, and that people of colour were to be their servants in life and their children in the spiritual sense. They believed that the lands of the heathen were their God-given inheritance. Today, the Black Jews teach that they are the only true recipients of God's promise, that America is the promised land of their inheritance, and that all white people must, and will, be eradicated.

The point being, when you look to an organization of people for leadership, structure, dogma, etc, it will ALWAYS, and without exception, include the personal and cultural desires of the leader(s). Before Christ, it was taught that God's people were a race and nation, and that they were superior to all others. It was said "let us build a sanctuary that He may dwell among us." God was a being seperate from humans, who lived in a building where the people could come to be in His presence. Then Christ came and taught that every person's soul is a temple where God lives. We don't have to go to a building to find Him, He is inside. Christ taught the God is universal, and is not confined to a specific race or nation. Before Christ, God was the God of Israel. After Christ, He was the God of all humanity. Confining God to an organization is, in effect, sanctifying our wants and predjudices. Ted Wilson is the President of a large corporate entity that was built by people, and is operated by people. He and the organization he runs only have the power over you that you choose to give them. Giving man the part of you that should only be given to God is a choice you make. And when man fails, and you are impacted, it goes back to your choice.

[Murcielago]

That having been said, the SDA church has done phenomenally well in many areas, including education and healthcare. An independent study showed that students in SDA schools score consistently higher than average on all subjects and in all grades. They also perfom above predicted achievement in all subjects and grades, regardless of ability. In many areas the church does very well, nevertheless, they are people, and will function only as people.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Gailen Arthur Joy:  

Interesting how you don't note that Newt Gingrich or McCain were unfaithful to their wives, and that their politics suck  unlike Martin L. King.  
I had no idea that House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Senator McCain were part of this discussion...I would guess at this point we roll out the "RACE CARD". Believe me when I say that no race or creed has the corner on CORRUPTION, including, much to your chagrin, minorities. You do not want to go there given the sitting Rep from NY, the former President of AUC and a host of others I could roll off my tongue and have written about. And my writing has clearly been without regard to Race or Creed!!! So do yourself a favor and avoid that head-on collision

It is interesting how conservatives like you like to condemn Martin L. King. Many conservatives however,  uphold and support the founding fathers - even though - not only were they unfaithful to their wives, but supported slavery, and raped women.  

May I point out to you that there are area's in Asia and Africa that still have very active slave economies, unfaithfulness is considered a way of life and women suffer rape at the hands of the powerful, whether that engenders the control of a weapon or simply the political or economic power to destroy lives. And, so, given the current international media and human rights climate, what would be their excuse???

Progressivism is not the basis of bloated taxes and Government - The budget was balanced under Clinton and now we have unprecedented deficits like never before - that were caused by a conservative government.

You clearly are very mis-informed or ignore history...your pattern would seem to suggest both as possibilities. A lesson on US Government budgeting and economics would clarify that during the second term of Ronald Reagan with the GHWBush team largely in charge at treasury and the white house allowed "tax reform" that was the 2nd largest tax increase in US History; and then George Herbert Walker Bush the candidate declared "read my lips...no new taxes and then as President invoked the largest tax increase in US income tax history. It was these increases in tandem with the republican revolution by your favorite republican Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, that lead the biggest reduction in spending in history (remember the Gingrich that stole Christmas - Time Magazine). That combination plus President Clinton opting to ignore Islamic issues (the first Trade Center Bombing, et al) and avoided an expensive war that gave the Clinton Administration the budget surpluses.

 

would you prefer to tax the poor and the middle class to give to the rich,  rather than have your taxes pay for just social programs.  I opposethe notion that fighting for what's right and against racial injustice necessarily involves corruption.

What Racial injustice? Taxes are paid by all races and creeds. Why should EVERYONE not pay their FAIR share? Tithe is not excused for the poor, nor for minorities...are you telling me God is a ruthless conservative???

I think it is unconsciounable that anyone want to insinaute that in order to be christian, that one must support moral compromise and a depriving of civil rights and basic morality.  Republican politicians in Congress were caught with boy pages, and yet they were defended by the Adventist Review. This shows that many of the Adventist Conservatives really do have a laizze faire approach to morality and want to impose this compromise onto the church - they have very little credibility in my book.

And you think that unconstitutionally requiring me to pay for Obama Care to private insurers by operation of democratic legislation is fair?
Or how about pumping out a "non-budget" that moved us $1.4 Trillion dollars closer to bankruptcy for a bunch of corrupt unions? Or how about taking the entire equity of bond-holders and handing a share of Chrysler and GMAC to unions that helped make the mess and helping himself to the balance on behalf of Federal Guarantees?
And is this constitutional progressivism? You can have it all...and the tax tab that goes with it!!!

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Gailon Arthur Joy - I think your remark about "emotional music" is uneducated.

This sabbath school quarterly if I remember correctly touches on emotions.  The bible does not say that all emotions are bad.  Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship - I think it's immoral for a leader or any one to elevate "emotional worship" in importance as an arbiter of christianity over and above christian behavior and observance of the 10 commandments.

I guess you can't admit that stale, Western hymns that also are derived from pagan musical roots - are unbiblical.

 - please explain why western hymns that are derived from pagan european musical roots are a more appropriate biblical form of worship - rather than over "emotional" music? 
Ted Wilson - in his inaugural - should have been more specific in what he was objecting to in the music and worship - because no where in the bible - does the bible speak against   "emotional" music.

After all, God wants people to be sincere in their worship, not fake or fraudulent.  I am afraid that Ted Wilson is encouraging fakeness in terms of worship, but not only worship - but in terms of existence and "christian" being in the Church.  Worship forms are condemned but not conservatives who bear false witness against others, don't adhere to the 10 commandments, etc.

You, EDUCATED, have clearly not read testimonies to the Church. particularly the counsels to the Ohio Conference on the use of music to raise emotional fervor.

And here is the problem dealing with an "educated" blogger not of the Seventh-day Adventist faith...that person comes morally compromised and from a different theological background devoid of the advantages of a sound understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy and the sharpened sensibility advantage it brings to the discussion.

Therefore, it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with one of so little real SDA theological background. You are left to your pathetic and illogical progressive theology, albeit not a Seventh-day Adventist theology. Therefore, I can safely conclude you are not a Seventh-day Adventist and unworthy of further theological debate.

We leave you to your right of conscience to beleive as you choose, despite it's lack of true biblical basis and being clearly bitten by the premise that everyone else that disagrees with you are racists.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[christian]

Gailon on this one I must agree with you completely. Ellen White warned us of the dangers of the music that we are experiencing at this time and warned the church against it. The biggest danger of the music is the fact that it creates an atmosphere that is totally opposite from the condition and disposition of the church at large. And then she went on to say that some would attribute the music to the working of the Holy Spirit. Whether the music is Rock and Roll or R&B etc... should not be the driving principle of the service. I can tell you for a certainty that in the (vast majority) of these churches the music is the reason for the service more than anything. I have a nephew that lives in Atlanta (14 yo) and I attended the service with him and he express to me while he liked the music after church he could never remember the sermon because the music was so overpowering.

We have the Spirit of prophecy warning us against the very things we are experiencing now yet we continue in the same direction. It is always been of interest to me that even though we know that Satan was the leader of the Heavenly choir that we would allow his music in our churches knowing full well the implications of it. In the book of Isaiah God would say take away the sounds of your music and let righteousness run like a stream. I would suggest that what we need is more all night prayer meetings and fasting and praying for the lords return. But let me tell you I know for a fact that if you ask for those things you will get maybe 1% of the churches participation though it is needed much more than music. THE REAL REASON FOR THE UPSWING IN MUSIC IS BECAUSE MUSIC CALMS THE SAVAGE BEAST. And we do not know our own hearts and refuse to recognize the true condition of our own heart.

Gailon Arthur Joy - I think your remark about "emotional music" is uneducated.

This sabbath school quarterly if I remember correctly touches on emotions.  The bible does not say that all emotions are bad.  Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship - I think it's immoral for a leader or any one to elevate "emotional worship" in importance as an arbiter of christianity over and above christian behavior and observance of the 10 commandments.

I guess you can't admit that stale, Western hymns that also are derived from pagan musical roots - are unbiblical.

 - please explain why western hymns that are derived from pagan european musical roots are a more appropriate biblical form of worship - rather than over "emotional" music? 
Ted Wilson - in his inaugural - should have been more specific in what he was objecting to in the music and worship - because no where in the bible - does the bible speak against   "emotional" music.

After all, God wants people to be sincere in their worship, not fake or fraudulent.  I am afraid that Ted Wilson is encouraging fakeness in terms of worship, but not only worship - but in terms of existence and "christian" being in the Church.  Worship forms are condemned but not conservatives who bear false witness against others, don't adhere to the 10 commandments, etc.

You, EDUCATED, have clearly not read testimonies to the Church. particularly the counsels to the Ohio Conference on the use of music to raise emotional fervor.

And here is the problem dealing with an "educated" blogger not of the Seventh-day Adventist faith...that person comes morally compromised and from a different theological background devoid of the advantages of a sound understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy and the sharpened sensibility advantage it brings to the discussion.

Therefore, it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with one of so little real SDA theological background. You are left to your pathetic and illogical progressive theology, albeit not a Seventh-day Adventist theology. Therefore, I can safely conclude you are not a Seventh-day Adventist and unworthy of further theological debate.

We leave you to your right of conscience to beleive as you choose, despite it's lack of true biblical basis and being clearly bitten by the premise that everyone else that disagrees with you are racists.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[mrst53]

I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.

[princessdi]

Amen!!  Ain't no rocks going to cry out in my place either!  Ooops!!  Good answer, good answer, Mrst.(In my most quiet reverent voice)    I just might have to send you my phone number to stop me from posting on this one.............good going.....there is just so much more we need to understand.......but I am going to shut my mouth....................oK but just one thing.......LOL..........

The enemy absolutely LOVES it when we restrict sincere praise and worship to God.  We join him in keeping the praise and worship from God Lucifer himself was uniquely created to give.  It is a way to place us in league with him against God.  It is not the type or genre, it is the sincerity of the heart.  Example:,  I have heard not one of you who maintain the conservative music stance, complain about the music on 3ABN, or more to the point any song that Danny sings, but you all call him all but spawn of satan, right?  Didn't stop him from kicking his wife to the curb and marrying Gidget, and every other thing you all have accused him of.....all along singing this perfectly "acceptable" music.  As far as you all are concerned he might as well be singing "urban" gospel.

Ok, I am going to leave it right there.......I promise....Mrst, please remind me not to post to this particular subject, PLEASE......Gurl, I need your help!  LOL!!! 

I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.

[princessdi]

Let me try this one more time.  The racism is there, Tinka.  This denomination's hosplital let a black womaon die at one of their hospitals because of her race.  That is truth.  They then, organized black(regional conferences) intead of teaching and promoting unity.  That is a fact.  And then there are the daily reminders that African Americans live with of which you could not even imagine.  That is a fact

Now, I believe the Word of God, because inspite of ALL of that and more, I am still a member of SDA church, because I believe the God given, biblically based message.  AND I believe that God's love is unconditional and equal.  I don't trust men to do the right thing, because they still have not changed, but I trust God.  He has already given me victory over ALL sin, including racism, so I don't have to be a victim any longer.  I cannot call myself christian and not believe that God is not more powerful that any sin. That being said, we don't deny the truth of what happened.  We don't get stuck there inthe anger and hurt, or make it excuse as to why we can't be successful or even properous in 2011.  We learn from it.

Your stance is very close to those who totally deny the Holocaust.  Tinka, if you odnt' understand this concept, just say so.  Turth is you never wil fully, you thankfully lack the experience that allows the understanding, but please don't deny it.  It is equivalent to what you are all are saying Danny's supporters are doing to TS's victims, by denying or even minimizing the abuse, they further victimize them.

Racism is only in the mind of a beholder that can't begin to know the heart of non racist because of their own self feeling of less equality taught by history and not the word of God. Therefore they look for every aspect to prove it using past history, where they will never rise above it unless they themselves will put past, importance of color, and all facts of history of man's sins behind them. One thing that can explain this evil as an example is the act of Crucifixion against Jesus. I sure do give thanks that he is not a racist against us. There never was a slave white or black in all eras of time that was worse then this as many whites were burned at the stake. Until all differences in color are made void there will be those that cannot come under the banner of Christ because they recall, recall recall and put their skin color to the task. It is of no importance!!!

Racism in ones own heart does bring on other self hidden agenda's of sin.  Such as over acting of equality instead of all in unity. Bible verses do not give differences for different cultures. Just the fact of using a different way of English speaking that all were trained the same since 1st grade. Difference in dress, Difference in walk, Difference in worship & music, flamboyant to show better equality. A non racist is easier detected by their non attention taking gimmicks which causes a meek christian to shy away as the overbearing sins take advance. Unity in their actions and a true Christian is in unity with the will that God presents and not a difference in culture. For some reason flamboyancy and meekness just don't match anymore then rings and things with bells and bows match the calm, meekness, and refined respect that is observed in differences of worship of unity defined. We are Americans --not African Americans --not Italion Americans--not German Americans. Who cares what and how we got here.  We were given this great Nation to be Americans in Unity we were given the Bible to be in unity and some just do not get it. History is past and we were given opportunity to be in Unity!! Yes the devil took it for a turn or two but some men fought it and won it for the opportunity of all.  Racism??? Only in the mind of a racist behind in all else that matters doing their own agendas. That is --what is not going through the gates. God made man in all color and left me without any but pale white. So what am I to do or believe about it when I very much love color(laugh) "Nothing"!!! or should I color my hair (white too) and give my face some big makup?? with some bells and bows to match?? Of course it might be a waste of money to do this. So the inner things are all acountable too in vanity--arent they??

[christian]

Please post to the thread please, I need a good discussion (smile). As I have said before music is made way to much of. You will notice that Jesus life was one primarily of service action with very little mention of music. Oh, and I do not equate musice with worship, but rather a clean hand and pure heart is what I equate to worship. Let me make myself very very clear (I hope) I love music as much as the next person does actually I played for church and am a musician, I play the keyboard, I have a kurzweil and a Technic and a casio and a rowland, actually I have four separate keyboards in my house. Actually I feel a little guilty because I have more instruments than I can possibly ever play. Okay, I confess I am guilty of lusing after many instruments. Now having said all of that I realize we are way, and I mean way over indulgent when it comes to music in church, that is why people get sooooo passionate when it comes to their music. ----- and yes I am rambling and very tired after 16 hours of work, so try and cypher this one ot Princess (lol).

Amen!!  Ain't no rocks going to cry out in my place either!  Ooops!!  Good answer, good answer, Mrst.(In my most quiet reverent voice)    I just might have to send you my phone number to stop me from posting on this one.............good going.....there is just so much more we need to understand.......but I am going to shut my mouth....................oK but just one thing.......LOL..........

The enemy absolutely LOVES it when we restrict sincere praise and worship to God.  We join him in keeping the praise and worship from God Lucifer himself was uniquely created to give.  It is a way to place us in league with him against God.  It is not the type or genre, it is the sincerity of the heart.  Example:,  I have heard not one of you who maintain the conservative music stance, complain about the music on 3ABN, or more to the point any song that Danny sings, but you all call him all but spawn of satan, right?  Didn't stop him from kicking his wife to the curb and marrying Gidget, and every other thing you all have accused him of.....all along singing this perfectly "acceptable" music.  As far as you all are concerned he might as well be singing "urban" gospel.

Ok, I am going to leave it right there.......I promise....Mrst, please remind me not to post to this particular subject, PLEASE......Gurl, I need your help!  LOL!!! 

I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.

[christian]

Princess I will second that motion. Prejudice is still very much a part of the Adventist Church and is not a figment of my imagination. It is very difficult for some to understand that because they have not walked in our shoes. I was in the hospital (adventist) hospital recently within the last 2 years with internal bleeding. Without telling you the entire story, I called the nurses station for help, the nurse came to the room and told me next time I get out of the bed make sure I plug the monitor back up. I told the lady the reason I was calling is because I knew I was dying and could feel the blood gathering in my stomach. The lady turned to me and said I will let the doctor. In the end I called the nursing station a number of time, finally getting someone to come to my room after telling them if they did not come I would use the bathroom in the bed. When the nurse came to the room I told her I did not need to use the bathroom but wanted her to check my blood pressure. I woke up after so many hours to a nurse screaming in my ear to wake up after my blood pressure fell so low that they could not find one (they had to call rapid response). Now I can tell you for a certain that the reason my condition deteriated to that point was because of prejudices. I ended up on a heart monitor and the like simply because of that incident.

Let me try this one more time.  The racism is there, Tinka.  This denomination's hosplital let a black womaon die at one of their hospitals because of her race.  That is truth.  They then, organized black(regional conferences) intead of teaching and promoting unity.  That is a fact.  And then there are the daily reminders that African Americans live with of which you could not even imagine.  That is a fact

Now, I believe the Word of God, because inspite of ALL of that and more, I am still a member of SDA church, because I believe the God given, biblically based message.  AND I believe that God's love is unconditional and equal.  I don't trust men to do the right thing, because they still have not changed, but I trust God.  He has already given me victory over ALL sin, including racism, so I don't have to be a victim any longer.  I cannot call myself christian and not believe that God is not more powerful that any sin. That being said, we don't deny the truth of what happened.  We don't get stuck there inthe anger and hurt, or make it excuse as to why we can't be successful or even properous in 2011.  We learn from it.

Your stance is very close to those who totally deny the Holocaust.  Tinka, if you odnt' understand this concept, just say so.  Turth is you never wil fully, you thankfully lack the experience that allows the understanding, but please don't deny it.  It is equivalent to what you are all are saying Danny's supporters are doing to TS's victims, by denying or even minimizing the abuse, they further victimize them.

Racism is only in the mind of a beholder that can't begin to know the heart of non racist because of their own self feeling of less equality taught by history and not the word of God. Therefore they look for every aspect to prove it using past history, where they will never rise above it unless they themselves will put past, importance of color, and all facts of history of man's sins behind them. One thing that can explain this evil as an example is the act of Crucifixion against Jesus. I sure do give thanks that he is not a racist against us. There never was a slave white or black in all eras of time that was worse then this as many whites were burned at the stake. Until all differences in color are made void there will be those that cannot come under the banner of Christ because they recall, recall recall and put their skin color to the task. It is of no importance!!!

Racism in ones own heart does bring on other self hidden agenda's of sin.  Such as over acting of equality instead of all in unity. Bible verses do not give differences for different cultures. Just the fact of using a different way of English speaking that all were trained the same since 1st grade. Difference in dress, Difference in walk, Difference in worship & music, flamboyant to show better equality. A non racist is easier detected by their non attention taking gimmicks which causes a meek christian to shy away as the overbearing sins take advance. Unity in their actions and a true Christian is in unity with the will that God presents and not a difference in culture. For some reason flamboyancy and meekness just don't match anymore then rings and things with bells and bows match the calm, meekness, and refined respect that is observed in differences of worship of unity defined. We are Americans --not African Americans --not Italion Americans--not German Americans. Who cares what and how we got here.  We were given this great Nation to be Americans in Unity we were given the Bible to be in unity and some just do not get it. History is past and we were given opportunity to be in Unity!! Yes the devil took it for a turn or two but some men fought it and won it for the opportunity of all.  Racism??? Only in the mind of a racist behind in all else that matters doing their own agendas. That is --what is not going through the gates. God made man in all color and left me without any but pale white. So what am I to do or believe about it when I very much love color(laugh) "Nothing"!!! or should I color my hair (white too) and give my face some big makup?? with some bells and bows to match?? Of course it might be a waste of money to do this. So the inner things are all acountable too in vanity--arent they??

[Jise]

Wanted to add a general comment.  I will have to address these many comments later on today or tommorow when I have time but just wanted to say - much of American culture such as the "lynching culture" is sociopathic.  In my opinion, the conservative wing of the SDA Church subscribes to this culture of oppression and compromised morality -on some level - and this is what has attracted large numbers of converts to the Adventist Church .  For me, Ted Wilson - the new President of the SDA Church represents moral compromise in that he tolerates and perpetuates this culture.  People who sing in Gospel choirs are condemned - yet conservative sociopaths who perpetuate a culture of sociopathy in violation of the biblical 10 commandments are celebrated and applauded.

I'm led to believe that Ted Wilson celebrates moral compromise and instead wants to attack "symbols" of culture - and that he's perpetuating ethnic discrimination as religion.

[mrst53]

Is Ted Wilson, black?

[christian]

Is Ted Wilson, black?

Yes, he is Black just like President Clinton and Ellen G. White.

[tinka]

Bring up your proof since you are spouting off your sarcasm of it. So what makes the difference if she was --that you seem to be dallying in. The person (his name slips my mind but seem to recall "Foy") before EGW with the same dream was mulatto and refused the task and this is her statement. So why was this not mentioned of her? Why would she hide it.  Need some documentation on this and not internet stuff from the "food for the worms."  I read it all and nowhere did that come across that I can recall. 

This is exactly what I mean, who would bring this up if it didn't make a difference to the beholder of this issue. It only makes a difference to a person who wants a difference because of their inner frustrations. I don't care if she was "butterscotch."  The Lord chose her and that proves my point. This recall, recall, recall, of sins of racism is never going to enter the gates.  Reality of history and now yes, but only to those who overcome will be in future. When things hit hard lets see if that still is all a racist can think of on the color line. Let me tell you there is going to be a lot more to worry about then the color code of past "devil operations". How about buying and selling, living, dying and standing alone and some will still be thinking about color of skin?  Not me! 

[christian]

TInka, even you got black in you because Adam was black and Eve was white, so how is that sarcasm? That's why the saying started if you go black you can't go back. Obviously, down the line we are all kin to each other from Noah. So actually you are a distant relative to me and if your have .1% black blood you are black, so there you have the proof you need. Besides, I read some of your writing and I can see the sista coming out of you.









Okay, folks I am just kidding lighten up, laughter is a medicine.

Bring up your proof since you are spouting off your sarcasm of it. So what makes the difference if she was --that you seem to be dallying in. The person (his name slips my mind but seem to recall "Foy") before EGW with the same dream was mulatto and refused the task and this is her statement. So why was this not mentioned of her? Why would she hide it.  Need some documentation on this and not internet stuff from the "food for the worms."  I read it all and nowhere did that come across that I can recall. 

This is exactly what I mean, who would bring this up if it didn't make a difference to the beholder of this issue. It only makes a difference to a person who wants a difference because of their inner frustrations. I don't care if she was "butterscotch."  The Lord chose her and that proves my point. This recall, recall, recall, of sins of racism is never going to enter the gates.  Reality of history and now yes, but only to those who overcome will be in future. When things hit hard lets see if that still is all a racist can think of on the color line. Let me tell you there is going to be a lot more to worry about then the color code of past "devil operations". How about buying and selling, living, dying and standing alone and some will still be thinking about color of skin?  Not me!