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This statement is true and I know of specific examples of conservatives being guilty of this in the SDA Church

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Total Members Voted: 2

[Daryl Fawcett]

Jise,

You said some very serious things against both Elder Ted Wilson and the SDA Church itself, therefore, exactly what in Elder Ted Wilson's inaugural message caused you to react this way against him in particular?

[Jise]

Gailen Arthur Joy:  Sure -it could be true that Martin L. King was unfaithful to his wife - however, his overall, civil rights were untainted.  People who slam the civil rights movement do so because they support moral compromise and racial injustice.

Interesting how you don't note that Newt Gingrich or McCain were unfaithful to their wives, and that their politics suck  unlike Martin L. King.  

It is interesting how conservatives like you like to condemn Martin L. King. Many conservatives however,  uphold and support the founding fathers - even though - not only were they unfaithful to their wives, but supported slavery, and raped women.   I would not be surprised if Ted Wilson supports this.  This is why  Ted Wilson does not have credibility to me - when He wants to equate Christianity to Conservatism.

Progressivism is not the basis of bloated taxes and Government - The budget was balanced under Clinton and now we have unprecedented deficits like never before - that were caused by a conservative government.

would you prefer to tax the poor and the middle class to give to the rich,  rather than have your taxes pay for just social programs.  I opposethe notion that fighting for what's right and against racial injustice necessarily involves corruption.

I think it is unconsciounable that anyone want to insinaute that in order to be christian, that one must support moral compromise and a depriving of civil rights and basic morality.  Republican politicians in Congress were caught with boy pages, and yet they were defended by the Adventist Review. This shows that many of the Adventist Conservatives really do have a laizze faire approach to morality and want to impose this compromise onto the church - they have very little credibility in my book.

[Jise]

Jise,

You said some very serious things against both Elder Ted Wilson and the SDA Church itself, therefore, exactly what in Elder Ted Wilson's inaugural message caused you to react this way against him in particular?

 I'm opposed to the fact that he is silent about the conservative SDAers who themselves have exploited others, womanized, bore false witness against others.  Essentially, he in my opinion seems to be stating that if you are "conservative" that you can get away with moral compromise, break the 10 commandments.  In my opinion, He seems to be stating that forms of worship are more immoral than breaking the 10 commandments.  He in my opinion, has slandered "emotional worship" and would be hard pressed to point to the biblical basis where in the bible does not support "emotional worship."

God is not against emotions - the bible is silent about the propriety of drums and clapping

[christined]

Jise, I don't know you or where you come from, but I am really glad that you don't sit in the pew next to me, finding fault with everyone and everything.  I would hope that you would go find a non SDA church to vent your wrath on.  Nobody is making anyone be a member of the SDA church.   If you don't like the doctrine and standards and things being taught, leave.  By the way, Christ and His righteousness is taught and practiced in my little Adventist church.  We welcome with open arms anyone who is wanting to learn of Jesus and wants Christian fellowship.

[Jise]

Gailon Arthur Joy - I think your remark about "emotional music" is uneducated.

This sabbath school quarterly if I remember correctly touches on emotions.  The bible does not say that all emotions are bad.  Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship - I think it's immoral for a leader or any one to elevate "emotional worship" in importance as an arbiter of christianity over and above christian behavior and observance of the 10 commandments.

I guess you can't admit that stale, Western hymns that also are derived from pagan musical roots - are unbiblical.

 - please explain why western hymns that are derived from pagan european musical roots are a more appropriate biblical form of worship - rather than over "emotional" music? 
Ted Wilson - in his inaugural - should have been more specific in what he was objecting to in the music and worship - because no where in the bible - does the bible speak against   "emotional" music.

After all, God wants people to be sincere in their worship, not fake or fraudulent.  I am afraid that Ted Wilson is encouraging fakeness in terms of worship, but not only worship - but in terms of existence and "christian" being in the Church.  Worship forms are condemned but not conservatives who bear false witness against others, don't adhere to the 10 commandments, etc.

[Jise]

Jise, I don't know you or where you come from, but I am really glad that you don't sit in the pew next to me, finding fault with everyone and everything.  I would hope that you would go find a non SDA church to vent your wrath on.  Nobody is making anyone be a member of the SDA church.   If you don't like the doctrine and standards and things being taught, leave.  By the way, Christ and His righteousness is taught and practiced in my little Adventist church.  We welcome with open arms anyone who is wanting to learn of Jesus and wants Christian fellowship.

Sounds like you have little appetite for intellectual inquiry for the truth.  If fault exists, should not it be pointed out? You are right - no one is making any one be a member of the SDA Church - yet the SDA Church also does not have the right to remain unchallenged when it itself is supporting moral compromise.  Sounds like you  are encouragin people to just accept moral compromise.

[Artiste]

Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship...

"Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!" (Psalm 47)

"Let them praise his name with dancing" (Psalm 149)

"Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!" (Psalm 150)

[Murcielago]

Christianity supercedes politics, denominations, leaders, dogma, cultural taboos, and all other forms of hinderance. Jesus consorted with the ultra-conservatives, the liberals, the brazen sinners... no one was beneath him. Up until Jesus, God was locked up in a golden box that could only be approached once a year by one man. The place where God and man came together was a building. Jesus made God universal. The cultural taboos that Jewish Christians wanted to impose on all others were brushed aside as irrelevant. I feel badly for anyone whose Christianity has to be defined by Wilson, Jise, a church, or any other human or construct of man. The wheat and the tares are to grow together, and it is only up to the master to divide them after the harvest.

[Jise]

Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship...

"Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!" (Psalm 47)

"Let them praise his name with dancing" (Psalm 149)

"Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!" (Psalm 150)

This is true.

[Jise]

Christianity supercedes politics, denominations, leaders, dogma, cultural taboos, and all other forms of hinderance. Jesus consorted with the ultra-conservatives, the liberals, the brazen sinners... no one was beneath him. Up until Jesus, God was locked up in a golden box that could only be approached once a year by one man. The place where God and man came together was a building. Jesus made God universal. The cultural taboos that Jewish Christians wanted to impose on all others were brushed aside as irrelevant. I feel badly for anyone whose Christianity has to be defined by Wilson, Jise, a church, or any other human or construct of man. The wheat and the tares are to grow together, and it is only up to the master to divide them after the harvest.

Ok, You want to include me in there with Wilson - et. al. - I disagree with that - but overall, you raise some interesting and good points. Thank you, .

[princessdi]

Man, I hate to do this, but I have to go GJ on this one.  It did come out later that MLK had some issues with women.  but I have to say that it was msotly said and then swept under the rug once again, mainly because of who he was so a lot of people don't know, or just like some others we know.......have pitched their tents along "de' nial". 

You know, I hear what you both are saying.  There are those on both sides who are not the "Ideal".  I have to also say, that it is mostly consevatives who tend to be the most inflexible.  If Jesus had not come, where would we be now?  Thnk about it.....the Pharisees are the ones who would have been considered the "consevatives of that time.  they considerdered Jesus rebel, troublemaker, and they were just as corrupt a they come, inluding having women who were the "temple" prostitutes.  They seem to get into this kind of trouble becuase  they have the law portion, and don't really believe that it is not the law that saves you.  Also, the reason "why" is a bit skewed for them.

Now us liberals can get into all kinds of trouble when we just go too far in trying to counter the consevatives, and some just don't follow any rules, laws.....they 'jes free!  LOL!!  We have to realtionship part down, but have a skewed understanding also of the law and it's purpose.  Especially since it has been errantly used to constrict and foster conformity, leaving no room for growth within a personal relationship with God. 

My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly!  problem is....are we listening?)

You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.  
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government

I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.

In my personal  opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.

You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!

Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???

The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body.  I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"

Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws.  Now is this moral?

I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!

[/quote]

[princessdi]

Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!!   But I have to add that there are those of us somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.

Yea, I agree with whatever you two guys are talking about, visa conservatives and progressives. But can we please stop with the educated speech and bring it down to the everyday guy sitting in the pew? Let me try, the church is filled with stuffy old white guys and bitter old black guys. The stuffy old white guys see a dumming down of the White way and attribute it to drums, shake your leg music and getting high on meat eating supposed Seventhday Adventist. And the bitter old black guys think everything that came from Ellen G. White ain't right everyone is prejudice and the war on black music is just plain evil. Thus you have two groups on the same side battling with each other and as my mom use to say "two wrongs don't make a right." Whereas the above mentioned are not the only schism's between the two sides, it is still a pretty clear snapshot of the conflict between the two unconverted sides.

Thus, with every new leader of the church blame must be assigned and sides clearly drawn, because divided is the only way to truly conquer the evil pew sitters. Thus as has been stated God is about to spew our fellow evil brothers out of his mouth and set up a better kingdon to our liking.

But truth be told both sides are so far out of whack when it comes to the will of God as to be unrecognizable. Very little of Adventism is what the founding fathers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit intended. Thus when either side finds there HOLY SPIRIT UNDER ATTACK THEY FEEL THREATENED AND UPSET. What I mean is that both sided keep trying to define Christianity by works (conservative) or (liberal) while at the same time both are completely void of the Holy Spirit. Very, very few miracles are performed in the church because God has long since been abandoned in favor of conservative agendas or Liberal agendas. Until we repent and recognize that the Holy Spirit is not leading we will continue to have division and a desire to drum up the Holy Spirit through one act or the other.

You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.  
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government

I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.

In my personal  opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.

You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!

Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???

The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body.  I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"

Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws.  Now is this moral?

I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!

[/quote]

[Jise]

Man, I hate to do this, but I have to go GJ on this one.  It did come out later that MLK had some issues with women.  but I have to say that it was msotly said and then swept under the rug once again, mainly because of who he was so a lot of people don't know, or just like some others we know.......have pitched their tents along "de' nial".  

You know, I hear what you both are saying.  There are those on both sides who are not the "Ideal".  I have to also say, that it is mostly consevatives who tend to be the most inflexible.  If Jesus had not come, where would we be now?  Thnk about it.....the Pharisees are the ones who would have been considered the "consevatives of that time.  they considerdered Jesus rebel, troublemaker, and they were just as corrupt a they come, inluding having women who were the "temple" prostitutes.  They seem to get into this kind of trouble becuase  they have the law portion, and don't really believe that it is not the law that saves you.  Also, the reason "why" is a bit skewed for them.

Now us liberals can get into all kinds of trouble when we just go too far in trying to counter the consevatives, and some just don't follow any rules, laws.....they 'jes free!  LOL!!  We have to realtionship part down, but have a skewed understanding also of the law and it's purpose.  Especially since it has been errantly used to constrict and foster conformity, leaving no room for growth within a personal relationship with God.  

My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly!  problem is....are we listening?)

You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.  
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government

I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.

In my personal  opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.

You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!

Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???

The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body.  I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"

Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws.  Now is this moral?

I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!

[/quote. Thank you for your posting - Princess. Martin L. King was not perfect  - nobody is.  He however, he did not strike me as meanspirited and wanting the worst for others as some conservatives do.  My problem with some conservatives is - that what it means to be conservative seems to be limited to a few political issues concerning civil rights, and a few church issues such as ordination of women. -but has little to nothing to do with requiring conservatives to adhere to the 10 commandments or a christian lifestyle.  I actually get the feeling that some conservatives wish "ill" on others and this informs their views on civil rights and other issues.  T Now as to what you say when you say: "      My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly!  problem is....are we listening?) " - I say agree - amen.  I think it is a stereotype - to stereotype all or even most - of the progressive movement with compromise of basic morals.  Just because some one believes in the "progressive" ideal of opposing racial injustice - does not mean that said person is morally compromised - but this is the  idea that some conservatives are peddling.

            

[Murcielago]

You have launched a thought-provoking conversation. Thank you. I would posit that stereotyping and wishing ill on others are not the exclusive domain of conservatives, or progressives, but are practiced equally by both sides. "If you don't hate evil in the manner that I do, then..." and "If you don't love and care as much as I do, then..." and what comes after the two "thens" is usually fundamentally the same. Regardless the motivation behind it, vitriol is vitriol, and hate is hate.

Thank you for your posting - Princess. Martin L. King was not perfect  - nobody is.  He however, he did not strike me as meanspirited and wanting the worst for others as some conservatives do.  My problem with some conservatives is - that what it means to be conservative seems to be limited to a few political issues concerning civil rights, and a few church issues such as ordination of women. -but has little to nothing to do with requiring conservatives to adhere to the 10 commandments or a christian lifestyle.  I actually get the feeling that some conservatives wish "ill" on others and this informs their views on civil rights and other issues.  T Now as to what you say when you say: "      My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly!  problem is....are we listening?) " - I say agree - amen.  I think it is a stereotype - to stereotype all or even most - of the progressive movement with compromise of basic morals.  Just because some one believes in the "progressive" ideal of opposing racial injustice - does not mean that said person is morally compromised - but this is the  idea that some conservatives are peddling.

[Jise]

You have launched a thought-provoking conversation. Thank you. I would posit that stereotyping and wishing ill on others are not the exclusive domain of conservatives, or progressives, but are practiced equally by both sides. "If you don't hate evil in the manner that I do, then..." and "If you don't love and care as much as I do, then..." and what comes after the two "thens" is usually fundamentally the same. Regardless the motivation behind it, vitriol is vitriol, and hate is hate.

Thank you for your posting - Princess. Martin L. King was not perfect  - nobody is.  He however, he did not strike me as meanspirited and wanting the worst for others as some conservatives do.  My problem with some conservatives is - that what it means to be conservative seems to be limited to a few political issues concerning civil rights, and a few church issues such as ordination of women. -but has little to nothing to do with requiring conservatives to adhere to the 10 commandments or a christian lifestyle.  I actually get the feeling that some conservatives wish "ill" on others and this informs their views on civil rights and other issues.  T Now as to what you say when you say: "      My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly!  problem is....are we listening?) " - I say agree - amen.  I think it is a stereotype - to stereotype all or even most - of the progressive movement with compromise of basic morals.  Just because some one believes in the "progressive" ideal of opposing racial injustice - does not mean that said person is morally compromised - but this is the  idea that some conservatives are peddling.

Thank you for your comments - God even hates - he hates unrighteousness.  Strong belief against unrighteousness is not necessarily vitriol.  I take Issue with Ted Wilson's bid to insinuate that certain christians are not as strong christians or even christian when compared to conservatives merely on account of something like "emotional music".  I'm tired of genuine Christians being lied about conservatives and portrayed in an inaccurate manner by conservatives.  Exploitation, fornication , bearing false witness are wrong.  But you would not know that by looking at what's being toleratedwithin the church.