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This statement is true

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This statement is false

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This statement is true and I know of specific examples of conservatives being guilty of this in the SDA Church

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Total Members Voted: 2

[Johann]

You might be right - or you might be wrong - and neither might help you achieve your goal. The place where the movement takes place is neither by mass suggesetions nor rulership. The Holy Spirit works on a single person, and that single person prays for the Holy Spirit with someone else. Changes for better or for worse take place in the local church, regardless of what any president says or writes.

This is how a revival is achieved. It will never be done by an order from the president. It never has, and it never will. Now, will you be the person through whom the Holy Spirit wil ignite a revivval in your local church?

Shall I give you a nickel for your two cents?

My 2 cents for today - then I have to get back to what I've been doing.  Some of the Church's conservatives - including those hired for "campus" ministries - are some of the most morally compromised of all - they want to focus in on the "worship" styles affiliated with a few ethnic groups - but don't want to at all criticize harmful cultural practices of other groups - and yet hold their own "pet groups" up as examples for the church - when this is not per se the case.

What has become clear to me - is that some of these conservatives with Ted Wilson included are really concerned with nationalism and race - more so - than they are with advocating for a real and sincere christianity.

Allegiances and alliances are formed around nation and race - rather than what is right or correct.

What Ted Wilson seems to not realize in my opinion, is that you don't have to be Adventist - and you can be Christian - and be honest, sincere, pure,etc. -and that you can be a conservative adventist - and yet support debauchery, exploitation, dishonesty, etc.

In my opinion, Ted Wilson's inaugural speech indicates that he wants to attack "ethnic groups" and malign their christianity, even when he knows next to nothing about the substance of these groups' christianity other than their musical worship is different than others.

Something is wrong when you have conservative leaders applauding SDAs who are engaged in womanizing, exploiting others, dishonesty, etc.  In my opinion, Ted Wilson is terming what is right - as "wrong" and what is "wrong" as right - in some of his speeches.

[tinka]

The Truth of the matter is that people use "conservatism" to mean morality and posit "liberalism" aas being immoral -and they use the label to describe some of their societies as "conservatism"  - but is this so?  Many of the people who call themselves "conservative" are really quite permissive and immoral and actually cling to conservatism because of their "conservative" and immoral ideas about specific races of people - these people believe often times in  racial injustice, lynchings of particular races, etc., fornication, etc.  - "conservatism" has not meant that these people adhere to the 10 commandments any more than the next guy/girl.  In fact, some of the societies claiming to be "conservative" - and who claim to hold the monopoly on opposition to "homosexuality" - actually condone and celebrate heterosexual fornication and as a result - are plagued by a high preponderance of HIV/AIDS which is contracted through such.  There seems to be a bid to posit anyone who supports Liberal politics in the form of racial justice for example - as permissive.  But I have found that  some of the "conservative" persons who claim to be moral, support all manner of moral compromise, dishonesty, racial injustice and social injustice, as well as promiscuity. 

This rendition or version is only in your own mind that windows your own convictions of which are among the worst definitions of other clear minds that do not have these traits in their heart.
Liberalism and conservative means a whole lot different to me. Liberalism to me is rebellion against truth, justification for all ones own desires and demands. conservative means to me a person that is very humble and bending to the ways of Bibical wisdom for the respect of God and man. It is either one way or the other and that Characterism comes out of the portholes of the eyes and mouth very clear once statements like this are made.

[Jise]

Some have asked - if I don't like the SDA Church - why don't I get out of it. But the truth is that the SDA Church - or at least some members of it, have had a deleterious effect on persons originally outside of the church. This church deserves to be critiqued for its negative impact on society.  I'm thinking of one, conservative SDA who likes to think of himself as a leader, involved in  ministries involving students, who wears his conservative bonifides on his sleeve and his opposition to "progressivism." -but his ministry is really a "tribal" ministry driven by tribalistic sentiment against others. He'd have you think he's opposed to progressivism because it's the christian thing to do -but it is really because he supports exploitation and wrongdoing and compromise in my opinion.  Although this person is one of the loudest speakers against women's ordination, gay marriage, against evolution- this person supports the concept of "stealing" as well as secrecy where even Ellen G. White spoke out against in her writings - do a search on "stealing" in her writings. This "leader"  has then used what has been obtained through "stealing" to smear the character and religion of victims who've been "stolen" from .  Ellen G. White clearly states in her writings that the "theives" are the one's who've wronged others, but this leader has portrayed the situation as if the "thieves" have been wronged and sinned against by being the recipient of "stolen" goods. In the real world however, being the recipient of "stolen goods" is a crime but not so for this overzealous and patronizing tribalistic leader who is interestingly enough the SDA Church has set loose to poison the minds of America's young people. The bible is also "clear" on this subject, but this "conservative" leader seems to support this concept as well as dishonesty.This leader is speaking against women's ordination, but quite clearly he supports exploitation of others. Ellen G. White states that the bible demands "right doing" in all circumstances and is against all species of dishonesty - but this "leader" is essentially saying this is not so.  This leader has reached presumptions and conclusions and joined to support the thief - even when he was not there when the "thief" was involved in the theft. So the "conservative" leader himself is joining in on the "dishonesty" choosing to reach judgements and presumptions about a theft, of which he does not even  have first hand knowledge.  But why "worry" about said person?  This person likes to think of himself as a "rising" star within Adventism.  But outside of Adventism, he's a nobody and viewed as an ungentleman, and people just look at him as an envious person looking to bring others down and as a person who has come to embody a cheapness in the sense that conceivably he will never be able to repay, but will always be a borrower - the cheapness he embodies matches the cheapness he's directed at others.  I'm personally reminded of some of the Adventist Pastors involved in genocide when I read his writings.  

[Jise]

Ted Wilson in my opinion from his inaugural speech   - is conservative as are many Adventists - because deep down in side he supports the immoral grounds which are "conservative" upon which America was founded - that of exploitation of women, slavery, lynching, etc.  People who are often drawn to this church for its conservative ethos share these same beliefs.  Their conservativism is more so defined by the beliefs of tribalism that they have towards other groups rather than their adherance to a Christian walk.  From my experience, I've known baptists and other non-sda christians who were more moral than many "conservative" adventists in that they believed in honesty, social justice, and observing the 10 commandments with exception to the sabbath.

The adventist Church has some very low characters which Ted Wilson has not spoken out against as far as I can tell. Pastors who've been arrested for genocide.

In my opinion, some of the conservative 'leaders" who the SDA Church has hired to infiltrate young minds are little different from Pastors implicated in genocides.  Just because some one is a Adventist "pastor"  etc., should not exempt this person from critique.   There are adventist  campus leaders who believe in fornication, and in exploitation of women, yet are ardent spokepersons against women's ordination - how hypocritical can one get?  I'm led to believe that this kind of genocidal tribalism is part of the ethos of Adventism which is perpetuated by its leaders.  Adventism will only become more honest when it is able to critique its genocidal pastors, persons who believe in Trokosi or "witchraft" on the sly, or female genital mutilation as much as its leaders want to criticize Jazz, or other "emotional" forms of music.  Gospel choirs are not participating in genocides.  So why the silence about genocidal pastors who are adventist - from the leadership in the church?

[Murcielago]

Jise, it is interesting to hear your views, particularly in the context of the outcry from so many quarters that the church and its leadership are flaming liberals who are leading our young people away from Christianity.

[Jise]

Even if Mr. Ted Wilson succeeded in protecting the Adventist Church from "outside" influences, the church would still have tares within it - people who although they profess christianity are not living christianly.

I disagree with Mr. Wilson I believe - I think Adventism is more threatened from within than it is than from without - it can in fact learn how to be more christian from other christian faiths and persons coming from such faiths into the SDA Church.  It's  only an attitude of arrogance to think that only adventists can teach others and not vice versa.

It's sad when someone is judged immoral merely on account of   "emotional" worship and/or not growing up in the SDA faith - and when their honesty, and adhering to the 10 commandments is overlooked.

It is also sad when persons who don't listen to "emotional worship" music,  yet, exploit others, lie about others, fornicate - are not critiqued or called out as a problem within adventism by the church leadership.  If conservatism necessarily equated to christian behavior and morality, why is it that some   societies that call themselves "conservative" are visited in high preponderence with plagues that are often associated with fornication?  These societies allege "homosexuality" is wrong as is women's ordination.  But is not it hypocritical to talk of "homosexuality" and yet have an industry of heterosexual fornication that is more of an industry than than any economic concern- to advocate against women's ordination, yet support exploitation of women, rape of women, unbiblical attitudes towards women?  Is for example, a stance of being against ordination for women really a valid stance if it's coming from a person who supports "exploitation" of women t?  Are such people really fighting for what's correct or for an unbiblical inversion of what is really important to Jesus and God?

[Jise]

I have found that I have different ideals than many "conservative" adventists that has to do with my upbringing.  There are many adventists who come from a culture or country where "caste" is a way of life.  There are also many adventists coming from countries that  participated with Western empires in slavery and human subjugation.  What I've found is some of the leaders in the Adventist Church hailing from these backgrounds - although they want to portray themselves as if they are "holier than thou" than their liberal counterparts - these people have different ideals from me and others who I grew up with in the non-adventist faith -some of these persons coming from cultures of "caste" and with a culture where ancient hatreds and grievances still hold sway -believe in dishonesty, exploitation, and other unchristian behavior - and seem to think that simply giving the lable "conservative" to this immoral behavior - makes this behavior christian.  The real truth is that many such persons are attracted to "conservatism" more for the sociopathy bound up within  conservatism rather than conservatism's adherence to the christian faith.  Caste is a way of life in many parts of the world, and there are some Adventists charged with a modicum of "leadership",  - who are determined to work to keep caste and immoral social control of certain ethnic groups in the USA very much in place.  Can you imagine if persons in the modern era who are American citizens  would take up and move to another country and advocate for the citizens indigenous to that country to be treated as 2nd class citizens as those citizens historically were treated in that country? This would be unconsciounable - but this happens everyday here in America.  Perhpas, this explains  why Mr. Wilson delivered his inaugural the way he did - does he have sympathy for persons who do this?

[Jise]

Adventists who are presidents of Adventist Conferences or in the USA in the Church bureacracy have little credibility at all to me - if they hail from countries where "caste" is a way of life and/or that participated in transatlantic slavery - and yet they call themselves "conservative" and proceed to denigrate the musical expressions of certain ethnic groups in the US.

It's pretty obvious to me that they are peddling tribalism as religion.  I think they have some nerve and audacity to posit themselves as the guardians of pure and authentic christianity.  Instead, they are the "clowns" that they allege others to be.  Some of them are highly upset that we are living in a modern world, where "caste" is no longer supposed to rule - and by hard work, and merit, some who would have been oppressed by caste in their societies, now have achieved great things professionally, have achieved a measure of prosperity and have moved above our "station' in life, and even surpassed many of them. It's become quite clear to me that that ministry of some "conservative adventists" is really a ministry of tribalism, envy- it is akin to adventist pastors involved in the Rwandan genocide.   The Adventist Church has to adress the question of whether or not this has become an Adventist ethos and way of life.  This tribalism.  This tribalism is very pronounced in the adventist church more so than some other faiths.

[princessdi]

OK?!  LOL!!!

So Jise, I was with you for a bit there, but there seems to be a method to your madness at this point.  Besides ranting about the conservatives, I am not sure what that point is.  The conservatives will be exactly that....conservative.  You can't change them.  Not saying that ;obera;s ought not try to be heard also, but this struggle is not new.

Jise, it is interesting to hear your views, particularly in the context of the outcry from so many quarters that the church and its leadership are flaming liberals who are leading our young people away from Christianity.

[christined]

I have been an Seventh-day Adventist for over 50 years, and I still haven't come to a conclusion of how to define a conservative or a liberal.  If we want to claim the name of SDA, how about just accepting Jesus as our Savior and follow the beliefs that we said we believe at our baptism and the decision to join the SDA church.  That shouldn't be so hard 

[Johann]

To many the two terms "conservative" and "libeal" are like two pegs on the wall. On one they hang everything they like. On the other they hang everything they dislike. On which depends on how the the terms sounds in their ears - or how their neighbors think they sound.

[princessdi]

Well, I have been SDA all my life, and I have to say I consider myself liberal.  Oh yeah that undistinguishable word in my last post is "liberal".  LOL!!!

Anyway, I wear jewelry, makeup(at times), go to a church that doesnt'have the traditional conservative, European style worship service, lots of demonstrative praise and worhsip going on.  it would to most consdering themselves "conservative" be described as "emotional", I guess. The music does vary and we appreciate music well done, as oppose to stay with a specific genre, but I will say that traditional hymns and "urban" gospel are on equal footing. Oh yes lots of instruments.

[tinka]

Di, I knew all this before you ever wrote this. My above definition still stands. There is no scripture that claims force to the recommendations and examples that are set to follow Jesus and not our own likes and dislikes. For as many as you can find in scripture that you can wear jewelry, I can find much more that shows not to. In fact I just heard a whole sermon that verifies this truth and why. I think it was Dwight Nelson. He spared nothing. I might be mistaken because I listen to all the sermons.  That is when you can tell who is who as I compare to what I have read from SP and Biblical.

Actually Armageddon will be where the two finally separate.  That is the road this leads to in the end. Those who comply with the "Word" and fully understand and connect to God or ones own versions on how they want to understand to suit their own desires. Never ever would I ever call myself a liberal. Even is by some reason it was OK I still would not because liberal to me means permissive of most everthing and turning your head to rules. Can one just imagine how worse the world will be when finally all is permissible. We are almost there. The Bible version of what I am trying to say is ...The good will seem bad and the bad will seem good. So here we are.  and to Jise...his problem is not understanding "perfection"..........and considers a whole different meaning to individual "growing" which can only be done in a meek, humble spirit but yet tags everyone to their imperfections whether they claim being Liberal or conservative. He fails to take into fact the words INtentional and Nonintentional. Example: when in doubt wear the jewelry and just keep    I do know one thing, not one tidbit or ounce of "vanity" will enter the gates. Does jewelry give one vanity??? Sure does. I like it and therefore will not touch it. IF I get to heaven I want to go the way I came with nothing in between or even take the chance let along cause someone else to stumble and miss out.

 Now if we are talking Political liberalism or Conservative, that also is a division coming from the lack of example and understanding to force a nation to give whether they want to or not or whether they are poor or rich. You can't change the way of God even using racism, culture, or political maneuvering to change what God states that the poor is with us always. Force always produces distruction anyway you look at it. Force is never God's way only mans. Until judgement!!!

[Murcielago]

This war between "conservative" and "liberal" in Christianity goes all the way back to Jesus. He lived in a society where the Pharisees had basically appointed themselves the conservative police. They watched people's clothing, food, who they hung out with, what they did on Sabbath, and enforced the Talmudic law. The Saducees were the elite, wealthy conservatives. Jesus was a flaming liberal who threw their conservatism right back in their faces. He taught that what we do, we should do for others, not for God; he broke their Sabbath laws; he broke their food laws; he pulled the law out of the mire it was in and showed that it was fluid. Later, the apostles had to deal with Christians who tried to impose Judaic rules regarding clean and unclean meat, circumcision, and so forth. Eventually Christianity was overtaken by the conservatives and what ensued was the Dark Ages. With the liberal enlightenment of the Rennaisance came the birth of protestantism, which was quickly hijacked by some like Savonarolla and Calvin. Never have religious conservatives been able to establish or rule a successful society. It wasn't until brighter, progressive minds won out in Geneva that Switzerland turned from the iron fisted Calvinist conservatives and became a shining light. William the Silent crushed conservative rule in Holland, freed it from religious law, and made it the only country in Europe with true freedom of religion, and the home of some of the greatest minds, because they could operate in freedom from the conservative religious oppression that crushed progress everywhere else.

[princessdi]

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, Murcielago!

Tinka, I was putting that out there for folks who don't me.  We have already had this discussionand gree to disagree.