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[Bob Pickle]

From http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19:

When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.

So according to the NAD's own website, the vote by Autumn Council was the vote of final authority.

[Johann]

From http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19:

When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.

So according to the NAD's own website, the vote by Autumn Council was the vote of final authority.

"Should" is an interesting word - also as used within the Church. Here is a dictionary definition: "I should think so!"

I may surprise some but the working policy of the General Conference might not valid in a local conference unless that local conference has voted to make it valid within its territory!

You can take this even to the level of a local church. The General Conference has no power to dis-fellowship any member if the local church will not do it. The local conference or union conference has the right to dismiss a pastor or any other worker on their pay-list, but they have no authority to dis-fellowship that pastor as a member of a local church. The conference can retaliate by dismissing the whole church from the conference and then accept individual members into the Conference Church, if such a church exists in the local field.

Neither is the Church Manual valid in a local field which prefers to make its own manual, and I know of such instances. I have argued a case with the General Conference Church Manual in my hand and was told the local field had never adopted it for local use.

[Johann]

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4877

A World-wide study of ordination is being launched. If the reports are ready the question will be taken up at the next GC session in 2015.

[Bob Pickle]

From http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19:

When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.

So according to the NAD's own website, the vote by Autumn Council was the vote of final authority.

"Should" is an interesting word - also as used within the Church. Here is a dictionary definition: "I should think so!"

The word used was "shall" rather than "should," which carries a slightly different connotation. The former says what will be done, and the latter says what ought to be done but might not be.

I may surprise some but the working policy of the General Conference might not valid in a local conference unless that local conference has voted to make it valid within its territory!

I think this is how it should be. But weren't the divisions originally part of the General Conference, not separate and distinct organizations? And if so, are they still?

[Johann]

But weren't the divisions originally part of the General Conference, not separate and distinct organizations? And if so, are they still?

At least until recently a Division President was regarded as a Vice President of the General Conference - and it seems like some of them made us of their "right" to retire by spending their last years of work at headquarters.

[Gregory]

Thel official organizaitonal structors of the SDA Chruch are as follows:
Local Church
Local Conference
Union Conference
General Conference


NOTE:  To simplify it I have not referenced "missions" on any level.  You will note that there is no such thing in the organized structure of the SDA Church as a Division.  A Division is simply a part of the General Conference. The Division is expected to conduct the work of the General Conference in the area of the World that constitutes the Division.  In doing that, the Division has traditionally had some ability to define how it would conduct the work of the General Conference.

NOTE:  I am not saying one way or the other as to whether or not the NAD has the authority to place women into positions as Conference President. But, keep in mind that the GC has a female Vice President.

The issue is complex and not as simple as it might seem.

[Johann]

In some places the Union and Conference are united or the Conference is directly under the Division.

Credentials seem to be given by the Division and not the general Conference

[Gregory]

Credentials:  Most often they are given by the local Conference.  Some are given by the General Conference and some by the Division and some by the Union Conference.   My Credentials have mostly been issued by the General Conference.  However, at the present mine are issued by the Division.

There are some unusual circumstancs as to the relationship between a local Conference and what organilzation is over it.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

I have concluded that the current administration of General Conference and the Division are yet another example of creaping compromise. And the finest political gamesmen the church will afford.

While sold to the world church a year ago as revivalists and reformers they have turned out to be the political animals I had suspected they would be. This political compromise does indeed fly in the face of the General Conference in Session. Is it rebellion? They do not look at it that way but the same divination that lead to the Harris Pine debacle still leads the men at the top of our church. Like Fathers, Like Sons!!!

They are neither revivalists not reformers. They play a carefully balanced political game to keep all the people happy all the time!!!! But they do not try to keep God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit happy at all and are the very personification of Laodicean leadership!!! IE: They are not REMNANT leadership. They will not lead us into the Loud Cry although, we will cry loudly from the mistakes made by these political fiascos!!! And we are destined to repeat history as more institutions meet the fate of Atlantic Union College. Perhaps, even the General Conference Corporation itself.

Rest assured that the Lord will manifest His Power within the Church in His Time and these frauds of divine leadership will be swept aside as surely as a Sunday Law shall come!!! They will either revive and reform before that Law or they will be swept into the crowds of examples of our brightest lights gone out and will be the Remnant's greatest detractors!!!

A very long time ago I came to the conclusion that "Credentials" whether by Ordination (the laying on of hands) or by Commission (the imperfect foundational creeping compromise) were meaningless in that zone just past the belt of Orion if it is not joindered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the "anointed" all too frequently demonstrated by the fruits of the Spirit that if they were connected to a spirit it was all too often the wrong spirit. Therefore, the laying on of hands is a void act if not done in concert with the Holy Spirit and the anointing that went with it is a nullity!!!

Yes, we have a lot of nullity in the ministry today and the realization of this most fundamental premise will help us recognize the Laodicean condition we have attained so completely...and awaken us to the need to Answer the Knock at the Door if we are to ever become a Remnant. And be certain that those "Anointed" in the near future will not be anointed by hands, but rather "Anointed By The Spirit" and will wax HOT with concern for lost souls. BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM!!!

And we shall share care not at all for this Fall Council Compromise as it will bear no weight whatsoever upon the work to be done by the manifestation of His Spirit within the REMNANT Church, and the LOUD CRY that will result.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[Murcielago]

A very long time ago I came to the conclusion that "Credentials" whether by Ordination (the laying on of hands) or by Commission (the imperfect foundational creeping compromise) were meaningless in that zone just past the belt of Orion if it is not joindered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You sure got that right!!!!

[Gregory]

On November 7, Bob posted a comment that suggested that opined as to a "final authority" in the matter of women in ministry.

On November 16, 2011 in a second Division of the General Conference a vote  was taken that impacts on women in ministry:

"16 November 2011 Becici, Montenegro [Miroslav Pujic, Breaking News, tedNEWS] Today, forty-five delegates and twenty five invitees (union secretaries and treasurers) from the thirteen Unions and three attached Fields, which constitute the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Trans-European region (TED), discussed a Motion on Women in Leadership. After prayer, the 91% of the delegates voted by secret ballot to express approval of the motion at the annual year-end executive committee meetings. The invitees affirmed the motion by a similar per cent in a secret ballot.

‘* * * * * * * * *

The committee expressed sadness and disappointment at the response of the Annual Council and recognised the Bible-based conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a fellowship of the “priesthood of all believers” and that the Holy Spirit calls and equips men and women with various gifts, including that of leadership. For many within the TED it is an ethical and legal matter that strongly affects their consciences.

The committee prayerfully voted to affirm that each union can apply parity between male and female pastors within the framework of TED’s existing policies and guidelines for ordained/commissioned minister credentials.

As far as the North-American Division decision is concerned, to keep the variance they asked for in 2009 and then voted both in 2010 and 2011, we understand their need for this and regret that Annual Council was unwilling to endorse their decision.

Dr Bertil Wiklander, TED President says: "What works best for the TED at this time is to let all know where we stand and what we want regarding women in leadership, while doing all we can to promote women as pastors and leaders in our church within the working policy. We will continue to work with our unions to see how we can support and enable the many women who the Holy Spirit has clearly called to leadership.” To read full voted document please click here [tedNEWS]
________________________________________
tedNEWS Staff: Miroslav Pujic, director; Deana Stojkovic, editor
119 St Peter's Street, St Albans, Herts, AL1 3EY, England
E-mail: tednews@ted-adventist.org
Website: www.ted-adventist.org
tedNEWS is an information bulletin issued by the communication department of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Trans-European Division.
You are free to re-print any portion of the bulletin without need for special permission. However, we kindly request that you identify tedNEWS whenever you publish these materials.”

[Gregory]

For those who would lilke to read what was voted, here it the motion that was voted:

"Motion on Women in Leadership

• We maintain our Bible-based conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a fellowship of the “priesthood of all believers” and that the Holy Spirit calls and equips men and women with various gifts, including that of leadership. Ministry in the New Testament is based on spiritual gifts. It is the fellowship of believers that recognises and endorses these gifts and sends out women and men for service.

• We express our sadness and disappointment at the decision of the Annual Council. We prayerfully and sincerely believe it will damage the work of God’s people in many parts of the TED.

• We find it difficult to understand why the election of a commissioned minister by a local constituency could harm other world divisions, since a commissioned minister serving as president only impacts the local organisation.

• We believe that ordination or the “setting aside” of members, regardless of gender, for leadership in the church is made by prayer and the laying on of hands in order to confirm the presence of the spiritual gift of leadership, as the Bible teaches, and not to convey a particular quality of “priestly holiness” or spiritual status.

• We recognise that changes to the bold print in the model constitutions in the TED Working Policy must be approved by the General Conference. We have maintained this position within the TED when unions or conferences have been tempted to walk an independent path. However we request the General Conference to understand that for many this is an ethical and legal matter that strongly affects their consciences.

• We recognise that the World Church has approved a timetable for studying the theology of ordination with a view to bring a proposal to the General Conference Annual Council in 2014. We regret the extended timeline as it places some unions/conferences/missions/fields in an ethical and legal dilemma.

• We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women’s ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population. After consultation with the TED administration and approval by the appropriate church governance body, such unions/conferences/missions/fields may apply parity between male and female pastors on the grounds of the TED’s existing policies and guidelines for ordained/commissioned minister credentials. [tedNEWS]"


Copyright © 2010 Trans-European Division.

[Bob Pickle]

• We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women’s ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population.

The vast majority? Really? I find that difficult to believe.

Regardless, the statement fails to note that there are those out there, both men and women, who will hesitate to listen to the Adventist message if Adventism does not maintain the biblical distinction between the genders in spiritual leadership roles. I know, because I have talked with such folks.

[Gregory]

Bob: The statement referenced the vast majority of the population.   That population was clearly non-SDA and potentially non-Christian.  It was stated that it was a population that needed to have the Adventist message shared with them--not SDA.  It was a population that exists in the Trans European Division,not North America.  Do you challenge the statement in the context of a non-SDA population in the TED?

[Bob Pickle]

Bob: The statement referenced the vast majority of the population.   That population was clearly non-SDA and potentially non-Christian.  It was stated that it was a population that needed to have the Adventist message shared with them--not SDA.  It was a population that exists in the Trans European Division,not North America.  Do you challenge the statement in the context of a non-SDA population in the TED?

Yes, I challenged that statement, if "challenge" is the right word, because I highly doubt that the vast majority of the population cares that much that they would refuse to study the Bible with someone who belonged to a church that followed the biblical gender distinctions regarding spiritual leadership.

Read what I wrote again, and you should be able to see that I was referring to non-Adventists in what I wrote.

So what is next? Will the TED ask to change their main day of worship to Sunday so that the vast majority of their field will be more apt to listen to the Adventist message, which at that point would no longer exist? I ask that question only to point out that what the vast majority of the population thinks really doesn't matter. The question is, What does the Bible say? Whenever we put greater stock in public opinion than in Scripture, we are in serious trouble.

Note that not one specific Scripture was cited in support of their position that there is no distinction in the leadership roles of men and women in the New Testament. Not one. Why not?